Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

My intention is to move the discussion "Emacs website, Lisp, and other" from
'emacs-devel@gnu.org' to 'emacs-tangents'.

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Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

From: 	Emanuel Berg
Subject: 	Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
Date: 	Mon, 05 Aug 2024 00:55:48 +0200
User-agent: 	Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)

Jeremy Bryant wrote:

> Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> It will give you standard for measuring other languages.

Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
engineering one can measure it.

> Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> superior, but not all of them.

Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
alternative to Python 2024.

It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
high on Lisp.

Lisp's superiority is a myth.

To me it is more like a drug :)

--
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal





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Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

From: 	divya
Subject: 	Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
Date: 	Mon, 05 Aug 2024 11:37:24 +0000
User-agent: 	Roundcube Webmail

    Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.


Hello, I've been reading the last few exchanges and this strikes to me as intriguing. Which univerisities are you aware of, other than the places where Felleisen, Friedman et.al (Racket folks) have been active to have a serious Lisp-based approach? You no longer have that in MIT in any serious capacity either, except a few grad PL Theory classes, one doesn't really interact with Lisp in any considerable capacity. And this is not really news, even Sussman (co-author of SICP, taught at MIT) acknowledged the wave of changing to Python from Lisp[0].


I find this dishonest in the least, to not acknowledge the existing conditions as they are.


Regards,

Divya

[0]: https://cemerick.com/blog/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program.html





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Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

From: 	Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
Subject: 	Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
Date: 	Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:56:14 +0200

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>> The best education one can get today is by self discovery.

I tried that while at school. Luckily my teachers trusted my skills
enough to let me step out of chemistry class for half a year and learn
by myself. And prove my knowledge afterwards.

My takeaway was:

I could learn Chemistry myself. It worked.
But it took three times as much time as learning it in school.

So, having actual, tested experience with both styles of learning,
I disagree. As long as your teachers are somewhat competent, learning in
school is far more efficient than learning only by self discovery.

And if you take it seriously, you develop deeper understanding than when
you only do self discovery (and take that as seriously).

>>> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial
>>> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs
>>> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024.

Having gone from Python to Guile Scheme around 2013, I also disagree ☺

But having said that: I do consider indentation style code more readable
than using mostly parentheses.

After reading people say things like

«allows people to see code how Lispers perceive it. Its structure
 becomes apparent.»,
«it makes Scheme way more “approachable”», and
«I have actually found it insanely useful to getting stuff done»,

I think I have a point.

> I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it
> happened that way.

There is a thread of thoughts by Beka Valentine from just these days
about how hackers tend to mix up who got popular with who is better,
because they don’t like to accept that languages usually do not grow
widespread by Logical Truth. I suggest reading that, before continuing
this discussion.

https://rollenspiel.social/@beka_valentine@kolektiva.social/112905007985491839

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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> Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> writes:
thank you for opening the discussion!

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> [2024-08-05 19:21]:
> From: 	Emanuel Berg
> Subject: 	Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
> Date: 	Mon, 05 Aug 2024 00:55:48 +0200
> User-agent: 	Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
> 
> Jeremy Bryant wrote:
> 
> > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.
> 
> Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> engineering one can measure it.
> 
> > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > superior, but not all of them.
> 
> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> alternative to Python 2024.

Choice of programming language is very personal, no matter their
technicalities or superiority. Users of Lisp talk about it in positive
manner, just as users of Python like it. Technical comparisons are
probably available online. I cannot chose programming language any
more by looking into the non-biased comparison. I have switched
everything to Emacs Lisp because it provides me fastest way of getting
things done. That does not mean that Emacs Lisp is fastest Lisp, but
it does give me fastest way to yield with products.

By using Emacs and Lisp, we manage here a lot of documents and people,
processes, accounting, reports, sales, too many things. Same can be
done with any programming language. Just that personally I have it
fastest with Emacs. The integration with Emacs is such an advantage.

** Statistics 

╔════════════════════════╦════════╦══════════════════════════════╦═══════╗
║ Total number of people ║ 241856 ║ Total Hyperdocuments         ║ 60866 ║
╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
║ People in last week    ║ 27     ║ Hyperdocuments in last week  ║ 160   ║
╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
║ People in last month   ║ 62     ║ Hyperdocuments in last month ║ 344   ║
╚════════════════════════╩════════╩══════════════════════════════╩═══════╝



---
Jean

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Re: Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> [2024-08-05 19:21]:
> By using Emacs and Lisp, we manage here a lot of documents and people,
> processes, accounting, reports, sales, too many things. Same can be
> done with any programming language. Just that personally I have it
> fastest with Emacs. The integration with Emacs is such an advantage.

I’m envious … and that people still do this is almost invisible today.

Could you present what you’re doing at the next Emacs conference?

Best wishes,
Arne

> ** Statistics 
>
> ╔════════════════════════╦════════╦══════════════════════════════╦═══════╗
> ║ Total number of people ║ 241856 ║ Total Hyperdocuments         ║ 60866 ║
> ╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
> ║ People in last week    ║ 27     ║ Hyperdocuments in last week  ║ 160   ║
> ╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
> ║ People in last month   ║ 62     ║ Hyperdocuments in last month ║ 344   ║
> ╚════════════════════════╩════════╩══════════════════════════════╩═══════╝
>
>
>
> ---
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> ✡️🛡️ Proudly standing with Israel, a nation rooted in history and culture. Let's condemn hatred and promote understanding.
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Jean Louis]

* Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@web.de> [2024-08-06 14:46]:
> I’m envious … and that people still do this is almost invisible today.
> 
> Could you present what you’re doing at the next Emacs conference?

It was that idea in past. It requires planning to present it, and I have no idea of dates of Emacs conferences.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

✡️🛡️ Proudly standing with Israel, a nation rooted in history and culture. Let's condemn hatred and promote understanding.

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: Lisp, Python, and other comparisons

[Eduardo Ochs]

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Hi Jean!
The conference itself will be on december 7 and 8. You can see all dates
here:
  https://emacsconf.org/2024/

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024, 11:12 Jean Louis, <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@web.de> [2024-08-06 14:46]:
> > I’m envious … and that people still do this is almost invisible today.
> >
> > Could you present what you’re doing at the next Emacs conference?
>
> It was that idea in past. It requires planning to present it, and I have
> no idea of dates of Emacs conferences.
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> ✡️🛡️ Proudly standing with Israel, a nation rooted in history and
> culture. Let's condemn hatred and promote understanding.
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>
> ---
> via emacs-tangents mailing list (
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)
>

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