Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[James Lu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 671 bytes --]

I spent months of my life researching todo app.

Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo list
app, but every person complained it was missing *one* feature they needed.
Emacs org-mode solves this problem.

Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
Emacs org-mode solves this problem.

Let's stop messing with code.

Let's start hacking.

Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
Let's start selling support plans.
Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
org-mode, and see public answers.

Who's with me?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2902 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Karl Fogel]

On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
>I spent months of my life researching todo app.
>
>Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo
>list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they
>needed.
>Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>
>Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
>Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>
>Let's stop messing with code.
>
>Let's start hacking.
>
>Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
>Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
>Let's start selling support plans.
>Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
>Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
>org-mode, and see public answers.
>
>Who's with me?

Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could be successful.  I encourage you to try them!  But I think asking "Who's with me?" is not a route to making them happen.  As Eli Zaretskii replied to an earlier post of yours back in September [1]:

  > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this
  > and that?" question.  We don't have a means to tell some employee to
  > do this and that job.  For a job to get done, someone motivated
  > enough should sit down and do it.  The best candidate for that is
  > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not
  > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it.

Best regards,
-Karl

[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM
> From: "Karl Fogel" <kfogel@red-bean.com>
> To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>
> On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
> >I spent months of my life researching todo app.
> >
> >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo
> >list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they
> >needed.
> >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> >
> >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
> >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> >
> >Let's stop messing with code.
> >
> >Let's start hacking.
> >
> >Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
> >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
> >Let's start selling support plans.
> >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
> >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
> >org-mode, and see public answers.
> >
> >Who's with me?
> 
> Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could be successful.  I encourage you to try them!  But I think asking "Who's with me?" is not a route to making them happen.  As Eli Zaretskii replied to an earlier post of yours back in September [1]:
> 
>   > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this
>   > and that?" question.  We don't have a means to tell some employee to
>   > do this and that job.  For a job to get done, someone motivated
>   > enough should sit down and do it.  The best candidate for that is
>   > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not
>   > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it.

There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements, but mostly 
concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo output
mathematical expressions using Mathjax.  For user specific things, one can get help
implementing an idea.  The person raising the problem is almost always more productive
when that same person works on it.  Otherwise it would be a gamble that can easily
lead to disappointments.     
 
> Best regards,
> -Karl
> 
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html
> 
>

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[James Lu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3250 bytes --]

I have little experience with Emacs– I can't really implement these on my
own.

I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly fee.

I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But I'm
sure
other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
on a powerful editor.

Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then, slowly
automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive tutorials.
Gather the best.

Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you
questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a revenue
stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF.

[0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:

>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM
> > From: "Karl Fogel" <kfogel@red-bean.com>
> > To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
> > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
> >
> > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
> > >I spent months of my life researching todo app.
> > >
> > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo
> > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they
> > >needed.
> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> > >
> > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> > >
> > >Let's stop messing with code.
> > >
> > >Let's start hacking.
> > >
> > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
> > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
> > >Let's start selling support plans.
> > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
> > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
> > >org-mode, and see public answers.
> > >
> > >Who's with me?
> >
> > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could be
> successful.  I encourage you to try them!  But I think asking "Who's with
> me?" is not a route to making them happen.  As Eli Zaretskii replied to an
> earlier post of yours back in September [1]:
> >
> >   > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this
> >   > and that?" question.  We don't have a means to tell some employee to
> >   > do this and that job.  For a job to get done, someone motivated
> >   > enough should sit down and do it.  The best candidate for that is
> >   > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not
> >   > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it.
>
> There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements,
> but mostly
> concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo
> output
> mathematical expressions using Mathjax.  For user specific things, one can
> get help
> implementing an idea.  The person raising the problem is almost always
> more productive
> when that same person works on it.  Otherwise it would be a gamble that
> can easily
> lead to disappointments.
>
> > Best regards,
> > -Karl
> >
> > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html
> >
> >
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6202 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Narendra Joshi]

James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> writes:

> I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly
> fee.
>
> I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But
> I'm sure
> other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
> on a powerful editor.
>
> Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then,
> slowly
> automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive
> tutorials.
> Gather the best.
>
> Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you
> questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a
> revenue
> stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF.
>
> [0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html

Interesting. Can you share an example task that you would like to have
accomplished/implemented as part of this support service? 

Best regards, 

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> wrote:
>
>     > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM
>     > From: "Karl Fogel" <kfogel@red-bean.com>
>     > To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
>     > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>     > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>     >
>     > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
>     > >I spent months of my life researching todo app.
>     > >
>     > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's
>     ideal todo
>     > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one
>     feature they
>     > >needed.
>     > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>     > >
>     > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
>     > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>     > >
>     > >Let's stop messing with code.
>     > >
>     > >Let's start hacking.
>     > >
>     > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
>     > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
>     > >Let's start selling support plans.
>     > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
>     > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask
>     questions on
>     > >org-mode, and see public answers.
>     > >
>     > >Who's with me?
>     > 
>     > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above
>     could be successful.  I encourage you to try them!  But I think
>     asking "Who's with me?" is not a route to making them happen.  As
>     Eli Zaretskii replied to an earlier post of yours back in
>     September [1]:
>     > 
>     >   > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not
>     do this
>     >   > and that?" question.  We don't have a means to tell some
>     employee to
>     >   > do this and that job.  For a job to get done, someone
>     motivated
>     >   > enough should sit down and do it.  The best candidate for
>     that is
>     >   > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course
>     not
>     >   > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it.
>
>     There have been times where discussions led to significant
>     improvements, but mostly 
>     concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g.,
>     texinfo output
>     mathematical expressions using Mathjax.  For user specific things,
>     one can get help
>     implementing an idea.  The person raising the problem is almost
>     always more productive
>     when that same person works on it.  Otherwise it would be a gamble
>     that can easily
>     lead to disappointments.     
>
>     > Best regards,
>     > -Karl
>     > 
>     > [1]
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html
>     
>     > 
>     >
>
>
> I have little experience with Emacs– I can't really implement these on my
> own.
>
> I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly fee.
>
> I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But I'm
> sure
> other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
> on a powerful editor.
>
> Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then, slowly
> automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive tutorials.
> Gather the best.
>
> Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you
> questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a revenue
> stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF.
>
> [0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM
>> > From: "Karl Fogel" <kfogel@red-bean.com>
>> > To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>> >
>> > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
>> > >I spent months of my life researching todo app.
>> > >
>> > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo
>> > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they
>> > >needed.
>> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>> > >
>> > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
>> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>> > >
>> > >Let's stop messing with code.
>> > >
>> > >Let's start hacking.
>> > >
>> > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
>> > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
>> > >Let's start selling support plans.
>> > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
>> > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
>> > >org-mode, and see public answers.
>> > >
>> > >Who's with me?
>> >
>> > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could be
>> successful.  I encourage you to try them!  But I think asking "Who's with
>> me?" is not a route to making them happen.  As Eli Zaretskii replied to an
>> earlier post of yours back in September [1]:
>> >
>> >   > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this
>> >   > and that?" question.  We don't have a means to tell some employee to
>> >   > do this and that job.  For a job to get done, someone motivated
>> >   > enough should sit down and do it.  The best candidate for that is
>> >   > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not
>> >   > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it.
>>
>> There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements,
>> but mostly
>> concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo
>> output
>> mathematical expressions using Mathjax.  For user specific things, one can
>> get help
>> implementing an idea.  The person raising the problem is almost always
>> more productive
>> when that same person works on it.  Otherwise it would be a gamble that
>> can easily
>> lead to disappointments.
>>
>> > Best regards,
>> > -Karl
>> >
>> > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html> >
>> >
>>

-- 
Narendra Joshi

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Jean Louis]

* Narendra Joshi <narendraj9@gmail.com> [2020-12-16 15:49]:
> James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly
> > fee.

Before 4-5 years, I would definitely pay for good professional support
in Emacs. In the mean time Emacs developers helped so much that I
resolved almost all problems, so I do owe to developers and must find
way how to return and exchange back.

And I would say it could be useful if GNU project would be directly
providing professional support to people and companies with dedicated
attention units and efforts.

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Jean Louis]

* James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> [2020-12-16 00:52]:
> I spent months of my life researching todo app.

Please provide hyperlink to that TODO app.

> Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal
> todo list app, but every person complained it was missing *one*
> feature they needed.  Emacs org-mode solves this problem.

While I do love Org mode like you I cannot see it comparable to many
other free software that are dedicated for note taking or project
planning and offer so much better interface, clean of disturbances.

Joplin
https://joplinapp.org/

Turtleapp note taking application
https://turtlapp.com/download/

Cherrytree - hierarchical note taking application with rich text and syntax highlighting
https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/

TiddlyWiki note taking in a browser
https://tiddlywiki.com/

> Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
> Emacs org-mode solves this problem.

Well maybe it solves, maybe not, I rather think it does not solve as
good as many other applications.

Many applications work on mobile phones, Emacs does work on mobile
phone but not as good and not as accessible application. Many other
applications solve planning and TODO, tasks actions, project so much
better on mobile phones and some work on desktop and mobile phones
together. People use mobile devices for planning today maybe 50% even.

> Let's stop messing with code.
> 
> Let's start hacking.

I like the enthusiasm.  I also like that it will take next 30 years
of fun.

> Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
> Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.

I guess Emacs manual may be purchased from FSF.

> Let's start selling support plans.

Why not. 

> Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.

Well, it is popular more among advanced users. 

> Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
> org-mode, and see public answers.
> 
> Who's with me?

To install such software is easy. It needs consent and approval by GNU
project.

It should be there. Because there is none, people go to Reddit,
Stackexchange, etc.

Here are good options to consider and all free software:

Question2answer:
https://www.question2answer.org/
https://www.question2answer.org/qa/

Scoold:
https://scoold.com/ and how it looks like: https://live.scoold.com/

Talkyard:
https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/latest

And that other first option too.

Once back in time I made it myself.

It should be made under GNU control and without any account and
tracking. Just ask the question. Whoever is supervising the website
can remove those spam entries.

Jean

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[James Lu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3355 bytes --]

> Please provide hyperlink to that TODO app.
https://culturedcode.com/things/
https://www.omnigroup.com/omnifocus/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.c306.ttsuper&hl=en_US&gl=US
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.tasks&hl=en_US&gl=US

> While I do love Org mode like you I cannot see it comparable to many
> other free software that are dedicated for note taking or project
> planning and offer so much better interface, clean of disturbances.
At that point, I would use logseq.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 9:15 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> [2020-12-16 00:52]:
> > I spent months of my life researching todo app.
>
> Please provide hyperlink to that TODO app.
>
> > Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal
> > todo list app, but every person complained it was missing *one*
> > feature they needed.  Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>
> While I do love Org mode like you I cannot see it comparable to many
> other free software that are dedicated for note taking or project
> planning and offer so much better interface, clean of disturbances.
>
> Joplin
> https://joplinapp.org/
>
> Turtleapp note taking application
> https://turtlapp.com/download/
>
> Cherrytree - hierarchical note taking application with rich text and
> syntax highlighting
> https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/
>
> TiddlyWiki note taking in a browser
> https://tiddlywiki.com/
>
> > Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
> > Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
>
> Well maybe it solves, maybe not, I rather think it does not solve as
> good as many other applications.
>
> Many applications work on mobile phones, Emacs does work on mobile
> phone but not as good and not as accessible application. Many other
> applications solve planning and TODO, tasks actions, project so much
> better on mobile phones and some work on desktop and mobile phones
> together. People use mobile devices for planning today maybe 50% even.
>
> > Let's stop messing with code.
> >
> > Let's start hacking.
>
> I like the enthusiasm.  I also like that it will take next 30 years
> of fun.
>
> > Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
> > Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
>
> I guess Emacs manual may be purchased from FSF.
>
> > Let's start selling support plans.
>
> Why not.
>
> > Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
>
> Well, it is popular more among advanced users.
>
> > Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on
> > org-mode, and see public answers.
> >
> > Who's with me?
>
> To install such software is easy. It needs consent and approval by GNU
> project.
>
> It should be there. Because there is none, people go to Reddit,
> Stackexchange, etc.
>
> Here are good options to consider and all free software:
>
> Question2answer:
> https://www.question2answer.org/
> https://www.question2answer.org/qa/
>
> Scoold:
> https://scoold.com/ and how it looks like: https://live.scoold.com/
>
> Talkyard:
> https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/latest
>
> And that other first option too.
>
> Once back in time I made it myself.
>
> It should be made under GNU control and without any account and
> tracking. Just ask the question. Whoever is supervising the website
> can remove those spam entries.
>
> Jean
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6529 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But I'm
  > sure
  > other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
  > on a powerful editor.

Does anyone want to offer support for Emacs?

I have a feeling that a flat rate of 5 or 15 dollars a month would
be a difficult way to run such a business.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Vasilij Schneidermann]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1243 bytes --]

> Does anyone want to offer support for Emacs?

Plenty people offer support on community-run platforms such as Reddit
and Stackexchange. There's also the #emacs channel on Freenode to
consider. I've considered doing the jump to something more binding
before (like writing elisp at an hourly rate), but didn't find many
people actually willing to pay for that. It seems to me that the
challenge is Bringing people willing to offer support and people willing
to pay together.

> I have a feeling that a flat rate of 5 or 15 dollars a month would
> be a difficult way to run such a business.

There are several fund raising platforms (Patreon being the most
well-known, but not the only one) that aim to incentivize a group of
people to support creators for a small monthly fee (usually between 1 to
20 dollar), given enough of them, it is possible for the most popular
creators to live off that. I support a few Emacs Lisp hackers that way
and I expect more of them to get into such platforms.

Another thing to consider is funding in general. There is this
widespread misbelief that one can support the development of Emacs and
Emacs packages by donating to the FSF. Giving people an official option
to that effect might be worth looking into.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[James Lu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1753 bytes --]

> I have a feeling that a flat rate of 5 or 15 dollars a month would
> be a difficult way to run such a business.

Well, perhaps. A lot (almost all) of SaaS is supported with $5-$15/mo.

Let's imagine a hypothetical Emacs engineer takes for $60/hour.

Most of the work would involve:

* Link to the correct tutorial
* Write a short sentence telling them what command they need to write

The rest is knowing good tutorials.

And sometimes they would have to write a tutorial that should exist.

For $10, that's 10 minutes of the engineers' time.
Smoothed over all the other customers time, on average, this could
certainly be viable: Each query can only take 30 seconds to answer.

I've heard a lot of people talk about just how much time they invested
into their Emacs configurations... imagine if we delegated the effort
to the most knowledgeable about Emacs, saving time and creating
revenue.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 12:50 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But
> I'm
>   > sure
>   > other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
>   > on a powerful editor.
>
> Does anyone want to offer support for Emacs?
>
> I have a feeling that a flat rate of 5 or 15 dollars a month would
> be a difficult way to run such a business.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6335 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[James Lu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1702 bytes --]

> It seems to me that the challenge is Bringing people willing to
> offer support and people willing to pay together.

I spy a startup/business opportunity: Start a platform that
lets people subscribe and lets people who want to provide support
get paid.

Use Stripe for billing, etc.

I would build this myself if I had more time.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:49 AM Vasilij Schneidermann <mail@vasilij.de>
wrote:

> > Does anyone want to offer support for Emacs?
>
> Plenty people offer support on community-run platforms such as Reddit
> and Stackexchange. There's also the #emacs channel on Freenode to
> consider. I've considered doing the jump to something more binding
> before (like writing elisp at an hourly rate), but didn't find many
> people actually willing to pay for that. It seems to me that the
> challenge is Bringing people willing to offer support and people willing
> to pay together.
>
> > I have a feeling that a flat rate of 5 or 15 dollars a month would
> > be a difficult way to run such a business.
>
> There are several fund raising platforms (Patreon being the most
> well-known, but not the only one) that aim to incentivize a group of
> people to support creators for a small monthly fee (usually between 1 to
> 20 dollar), given enough of them, it is possible for the most popular
> creators to live off that. I support a few Emacs Lisp hackers that way
> and I expect more of them to get into such platforms.
>
> Another thing to consider is funding in general. There is this
> widespread misbelief that one can support the development of Emacs and
> Emacs packages by donating to the FSF. Giving people an official option
> to that effect might be worth looking into.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4147 bytes --]

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Jean Louis]

* James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> [2020-12-17 17:15]:
> > It seems to me that the challenge is Bringing people willing to
> > offer support and people willing to pay together.
> 
> I spy a startup/business opportunity: Start a platform that
> lets people subscribe and lets people who want to provide support
> get paid.
> 
> Use Stripe for billing, etc.

General idea is just fine, go ahead! It seems to be your personal
project.

It would be nice if GNU project would be providing support straight
from packages. FSF is also accepting donations and supporting back
free software creation.

Regarding Stripe:

Credit card processing was possible even before Javascript. For any
credit card processing with non-free Javascript I would not recommend
people there. There are companies that will accept credit cards
without non-free Javascript. I would not recommend people to go to
Stripe.

Jean

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There are companies that will accept credit cards
  > without non-free Javascript.

Please tell me more!  (Off the list.)  I thought this did not exist.

                                 I would not recommend people to go to
  > Stripe.

Indeed, it is against explicit GNU Project moral rules
to recommend that people pay via Stripe, specifically because
of its use of nonfree JS code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > And sometimes they would have to write a tutorial that should exist.

  > For $10, that's 10 minutes of the engineers' time.

If every support request is that easy, then it would work, But what if
a user who pays $15 per month asks you to fix a problem that takes you
a whole week of work?

If you can clearly define what sorts of support you offer, with clear
limits, then this might work.

I suggest we defer the rest of this discussion until such time
as someone wants to consider doing it.  Then perse could talk
with those of us who are interested, perhaps on another list.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There are several fund raising platforms (Patreon being the most
  > well-known, but not the only one) 

For moral reasons, we cannot refer people to donation sites that
require donors to run nonfree software.  Patreon does that, and as far
as I know they all do.  I would be very glad to find out about one
that doesn't.

  > Another thing to consider is funding in general. There is this
  > widespread misbelief that one can support the development of Emacs and
  > Emacs packages by donating to the FSF. Giving people an official option
  > to that effect might be worth looking into.

The FSF does this sort of thing, and could do it for Emacs.
The question is, have we got useful ways to spend sums in the
hundreds or thousands -- not enough to pay for large jobs of
programming.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2020 at 6:48 AM
> From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
> Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, dimech@gmx.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > And sometimes they would have to write a tutorial that should exist.
>
>   > For $10, that's 10 minutes of the engineers' time.
>
> If every support request is that easy, then it would work, But what if
> a user who pays $15 per month asks you to fix a problem that takes you
> a whole week of work?

Only if a group approaches a developer would the scheme work.

> If you can clearly define what sorts of support you offer, with clear
> limits, then this might work.
>
> I suggest we defer the rest of this discussion until such time
> as someone wants to consider doing it.  Then perse could talk
> with those of us who are interested, perhaps on another list.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2020 at 6:49 AM
> From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> To: "Vasilij Schneidermann" <mail@vasilij.de>
> Cc: jamtlu@gmail.com, kfogel@red-bean.com, dimech@gmx.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > There are several fund raising platforms (Patreon being the most
>   > well-known, but not the only one)
>
> For moral reasons, we cannot refer people to donation sites that
> require donors to run nonfree software.  Patreon does that, and as far
> as I know they all do.  I would be very glad to find out about one
> that doesn't.
>
>   > Another thing to consider is funding in general. There is this
>   > widespread misbelief that one can support the development of Emacs and
>   > Emacs packages by donating to the FSF. Giving people an official option
>   > to that effect might be worth looking into.
>
> The FSF does this sort of thing, and could do it for Emacs.
> The question is, have we got useful ways to spend sums in the
> hundreds or thousands -- not enough to pay for large jobs of
> programming.

My general experience in industry tells me that it is the maintainers
that have to be proactive for funds, and then decide how to use them.
A very good example about this has been Dr Luis Falcon, Founder and
President of Gnu Solidario.


> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[yarnton--- via Emacs development discussions.]

 > There are companies that will accept credit cards
> without non-free Javascript.

> Stripe.

I'm far from a Stripe expert, but they have a payment API that relies on simple HTTP requests (REST). You can therefore even take a payment with cURL or wget.

They also have some libraries to streamline this process written in e.g. Ruby, that are MIT-licensed.

In principle, it sounds feasible to take payments without any non-free Javascript.

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Corwin Brust]

Hi :)

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 10:58 AM yarnton--- via Emacs development
discussions. <emacs-devel@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>  > There are companies that will accept credit cards
> > without non-free Javascript.
>
> > Stripe.
>
> I'm far from a Stripe expert, but they have a payment API that relies on simple HTTP requests (REST). You can therefore even take a payment with cURL or wget.
>
> They also have some libraries to streamline this process written in e.g. Ruby, that are MIT-licensed.
>
> In principle, it sounds feasible to take payments without any non-free Javascript.
>

There is also GNU Taler we can consider.

https://taler.net/en/index.html

I don't know much of anything about it but the project appears active.

Regards,
Corwin

Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > They also have some libraries to streamline this process written in e.g. Ruby, that are MIT-licensed.
  > >
  > > In principle, it sounds feasible to take payments without any non-free Javascript.

That would be very good, but sounds too good to be true.

Is there anyone who could investigate and see if there are any
problems as yet unknown to us?  Perhaps terms and conditions that
prohibit free software?

How about if we move this thread to gnu-prog-discuss?
It's a tangent here.

GNU Taler will be great once financial infrastructure integrates it.
Work is being done on that integration for the Euro zone.
But it is not an option for use right now.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)