From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Emacs i18n Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:28:16 +0200 Message-ID: References: <874kctcb97.fsf@cock.li> <837dhp3uqg.fsf@gnu.org> <2114291.0jFjTtfV1S@galex-713.eu> <875yx8bquz.fsf@zoho.eu> <87lf633wc3.fsf@zoho.eu> <87czrcdysr.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37298"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: moasenwood@zoho.eu Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 21 10:28:45 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m67av-0009Uv-AV for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:28:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39542 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m67au-0006xv-6n for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 04:28:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59484) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m67aY-0006xi-8t for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 04:28:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:36201) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m67aV-0001y9-Qw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 04:28:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1626856096; bh=/gQxRZEnCxe/R22bSnKN6qGDJqYZ02kyEnKr/DGHdhw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=SwkWhp/i+9UGD/aaeCjt6kGQZw/t5wN1q1TsMjGdvnd00fznnHxQ6uLiAc7KPRJ81 0/eQIWxl7Gel3q1K0og/hfv4HvuK3lAVN0dg3PwuDTn8goipQoyObH7mQu0UpiCUWH 0JCetytQrvLsA3dj+eN/mSihYSpAYCR2ZemQSrSQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.40.31] ([92.251.40.31]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs01.server.lan [172.19.170.58]) (via HTTP); Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:28:16 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87czrcdysr.fsf@zoho.eu> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:h1fS6S0759yLYMOAfzJW6L5OYrF47V1QNQHaX/F5Tek7roI1wPMBipiOxEmUdd9WHU87+ 8Q7479ePk7Vy6C7RY92+NenIBXvzvDWhTezYIbJs2WLQGQ2dRv11p+hC5Rpz5Rk289sH+aSrcYU7 nLk9X244kiyOmXM/ewYnuLZ6GCh+Bi+nZ5ap3chIooHVu0QkNWYmCqHdpWmb5rxDNrhMuSBzOLUG QlwUjTVFs3XKrjpPbMCvugi+4ZPycx0pw5oFmp/eN7mhhIpB+SQba9UFQ+8Oe5zrt+BCrufQvD5t 1M= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:aubbQYnKOoE=:U1QDj7TzpjSQnUJegOhh13 XHAv3LR6LHE2y2jWUlqi7eRaVW8ETcS92Eo7GMfDnrrEyvG1hdasBjzhYeDFMZfcV/eHS2zd4 3ALxTKv2mKZN3YZXHE9Cuhe2MlKEsG9+LtNliCMM4xvPNavzz6Q0g7WpiUVjB7ACFs+mUBX9Y kxKsRx26PdwPMdSvNKYsuB7CtI4onsiz8cabmW6Q8zt1UalE/+QJSWUgD49MX3TQVj0dnh0v0 Dw2XtdbRumnVM8KY3ZsCXe11Z+G+PdjMzRCMmvDhrkme5C0x852Dw2m+g/QLC+PscKnXDyb2h MnrHNe1lZYHEW05z6A4th/Bywu1A78184HkVUBEUjLz1rAyMMxeTWOZH0BP4xzfVgIqsGhoBB qRVOcaeK0d0k0iWaPTR+vb1ialMoF4iehkJjDqkSzPwSLrAg3YITJf42Nyh3rzvv7RG1LgzYr BTU0zWEnc6uczTGaakwSd70UNVk0NXlgFozN/SRT+d6TM/SynzYrtgWNMDz9sOLYfH7JvYyaX I5OXywkVruTLLvfoRomBjd4mQrg3txyhiR9507IUbtvnfTwayrciFE5kCErd4QquMX/k0nYtS YsHkARKdiWLnL+opSx0hRGHiVIeDJm1XWsTjuhLB4ix/mzTjlkQ231/gFgZ7DvloGyCUlneFM JM0xAgoqeoPiRx0f/qVi/+kJuIYjAkUxOfkVKax3SpUNsaNtmocVCkBllBiFFKCvgfKTxpufh jDQ//FUZRbWmCW1ELCGVJHGd0DZx0zh93L5sGtA9S/DPV/PHlOYauq6fUqTqpiBjy5pxP4f1 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.21; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131927 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 5:24 PM > From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs i18n > > Thibaut Verron wrote: > > >> Anglo-American beat French to world dominance, accept it. > >> It happened everywhere, including diplomacy, > > > > Don't diplomats have interprets? > > They used to speak French, now they speak English. > > We see traces of this in for example the Euro Vision Song > Contest where they tell the score in English and French. > > But numbers don't lie, pick up a book from your bookshelf and > have a look, find a ISBN number with 13 digits (a so-called > ISBN-13, they start with 978- or 979 which is the GS1 prefix), > and tell me, what is the number immediately following the > GS1 prefix - i.e., the 4th number? > > Please, just deal with it and go on, this is so embarrassing > every time it comes up :( > > > You've clearly never been to France. :) > > I've been to France, I've been to Belgium, I've met French and > Belgian programmers, French and Belgian students, French and > Belgian activists [1] (that has nothing to do with computers, > even), they _all_ speak very good English! Just like you two > guys do! > > > More seriously, a lot of people in China and Japan, > > including in the software industry, do not speak English. It would be an opportunity to civilise them. So that one day, they can do what the East Germans did. > Wrong! They do, and they do even more and better for each > year, and the very small group who don't, well, they have > a HUGE problem that should be fixed by them putting ALL their > efforts learning English as soon as possible - it is > *impossible* to be a tech/science person 2021 and not knowing > English - luckily, this isn't the case, but if there were more > people like you translating stuff not even then could you > ever, ever do it to any extent that would mean a positive to > those very few who don't know English, it would be a NEGATIVE > since they would only have access to a small fraction of the > material available, and in the worst case they would be > deluding themselves thinking they are so great, while actually > living in a bubble 10 000 miles behind everyone else! > > Luckily this isn't the case at all - French tech people and > French people in general have no problem whatsoever mastering > English, they want to do it, they benefit from it, everyone > else benefit from it, and most of all, it is the REALITY that > we have that everyone needs to accept for their own benefit! > > Speak French to people on the street all you want - of course > - but the language of science and technology 2021 is English, > Anglo-American, and to a large extent American English (writhe > "color" in source, not "colour", however write that in the UK > tabloids, by all means). It _is_ English and I don't care who > had a lousy colonial empire or not... If you want to function in tho world, you got to learn english. Otherwise you are on your own. Good luck with that! > > Translations would be very useful for them. Then they should do it. Or pay someone to do it. > No, on the contrary, it would be a negative to them. > > > And all over the world, a lot of students who do not feel > > confident with English treat the lack of available > > translations as a significant hurdle, or even a barrier. This would not solve the problem of doing real work. Nobody would care about that piece of software if not written in english. I wonder how we never got any programming languages not in the english language. Because all those people were either living in the United States or the United Kingdom. Could be that the French are still in denial in accepting such fact. They were the original developers and authors of computing technology. > 100% incorrect. > > > Your replies in this thread strike me as unusually hostile. > > Why is it such a big problem that some want to translate the > > emacs help and manual? I do not see a problem. The problem is who would do it ! > Yes, because I've heard this so many times before, all the > incorrect arguments, and it is bit provoking that it is ALWAYS > the French who brings this up no matter what e-mail list or > what tent on G8 in Rostock you are on! Every meeting, start > with a vote which the French guys insist on (despite speaking > English), French people propose French as the language (what > a surprise) and then get voted down 21-4, 14-3, 45-11 > every time. > > Why aren't the Russian, German and so on people who are also > part of huge language and language groups making this "French > case" you think? > > Can it be that they are a bit more modest with respect to > their own language? Or do they simply understand like everyone > else what a huge benefit it is to them _and everyone_ with > a common langauge for science and technology, and they are > enthusiastic about learning this for their own > information-input but also the ambition to give their own > information-output? Perhaps they cannot stand the fact that their Napoleon got swept onto his back by the british, and then had to wait for the british to save them from hitler. > Which, BTW, is exactly like the French are, so why on Earth > keep up with this charade? > > #@$%&! > > PS. ha :) > > [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/index.html > > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > >