From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Emacs website, Lisp, and other Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 13:45:41 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87r0b3p7wq.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23533"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 05 13:46:36 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sawAd-0005xy-TT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 13:46:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1saw9x-0001YT-Hv; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:45:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1saw9v-0001Y1-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:45:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1saw9r-0003DF-VU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:45:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1722858341; x=1723463141; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=LzrLMOln68tn8mpPbtus2SKhoau2eVjjfGKAfZq1jhs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=PNJVtqsmUj1r9toULG4w4I+lRXDke+vzgzhlQbTLnwquxxxbN1qa8xEdf7+Y9VW0 vBstDAviuIqhDYwP4KdfqO4Zla3C3jZXnTrRTnuKlU2QlL5WeH5MsonZeUiztD7iF y5tQBfmtTnrAx7eyIMI0XR0UxJkrKvihHDnJy1axPEFcXjY7MG8lkLUj0KK5a1FQn vac28+aRVmrJDZK+03+GUBtALP/CJ3tB8bMGPYTocROQ1+24Nm577MMkFK/pcycgx Ad94mlIkoC7MDE5R2nnh/OSU73Ym9vuMoy6+z5KxulDUyhg+CHGzIHnnDXbusF8uy U3J2QRztGHfERtq28Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs04.server.lan [172.19.170.170]) (via HTTP); Mon, 5 Aug 2024 13:45:41 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87r0b3p7wq.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eFLZ22UA+qpifH/HB4pDBy2jKJNITn6TpdeDZbnmhNQBYT8Omw+zjabwxMKZg8d+suNbR ikMQX/czoelVmB1uo3BK2p0j0iIRxCP9CnHHK3Y0QTudslnscGN4li1pr2SeXa8zvQcwdDPkUgOI DNgwOsmvpwKoS31zcRAFABbyDuFFBwAUNMl7Dcom6VayPMuOmaUIPQ21Dt6n68IbcMJZLZFgPw/k Lc0uj2SZw/9sp13y8BHZ4tqlrUBRiHiXp8o0QX6pPEaPLvcuzSPgX0HMmhY40hHwujciDZatKYKc 1Y= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:2SOFXQv0m1g=;5zSMx2/17W/TKzmkZfCvf1r6LHH /sNX4w9nnD8C/LEGfQ/xY0ySHLKtbet/7gQ79oFaF0z1jCzgJWX8g7bFM/U0bTGijX8MZLvVI kyLipFQaHdZqQVqTzWzLsXV8QOXKl60CiddAzeBa4iJPXDzIob/U1/si+zZW5PQ888xyhXymH Q4QcE8Qv95Y59HPRWt3IzN0QmCPmA5M/oRB/lorGNsTxatMcBKv/DEDpIkBUvgjx5vE3MUSHx IxQcU3NOAsKqJZXhMH7Omkuq3Xkzxh1pSl9a8hoV337rPvyxhCCfCNuA3+PG+rxYWQ3rRM+te PSGgaOuWCJ5vOHVFPVc4LHvJc4vRlSejoYRSkXc+OxXwaLf04dUZnKivUjIt4NM/83cHtNMr4 wfiHJO/PQErBi1izEsuMGo7DVf9PNCJdy65vC63/9CSCrTxNRnPP499V1dTfJ6kGEHKEvKdWY IufFDMS3qLzlkLcXKJHLamvp3WNEvVnWAKRfiiA9MOqU8GeQ1TWeBUHtBVOX/ysxCN+4rCfAj yJuChcn16AVNoeEsgTcux1QcUMBtC9lz8SjU7rU7ZQ1yZm7tpMzRCRqbR2KHIl2ZFFyKhXHWA fv+YTpq01mbw1dQ8704Yc/PapwXi5HbxIBaxoNe3NYDdTfJy+AvQON6hGsVFQp9W4bI05zZeV ypO5N31iBq4rkz7+S6D4rK2eHXqf/8FTXZguNohdrg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.19; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322362 Archived-At: > Sent: Monday, August 05, 2024 at 10:43 PM > From: "Emanuel Berg" > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other > > Christopher Dimech wrote: > > > It all depends on the specific work one is doing. In some > > instances the indented style and excessive use of () makes > > working with lisp code harder than other languages. > > After writing just a few programs in Python I wrote it pretty > fluently with very few syntax errors and very few stop - if > ever - to just look at the code and figure out - ???. Yet > after doing all this Elisp for all this time both in terms of > intensive hours _and_ many years for it to "assimilate" if you > will I can honestly/regretfully say I'm nowhere close to my > Python fluency after just a few short programs. Well, now > I have lost that as well, of course. And a lot of code even in > Emacs is very difficult to understand. It is the same language > but a completely, many completely different styles. For machine learning etc... the proper thing is using C, not Python. > > Many people are being forced to use Python especially in > > many university graduate schools. Lisp has always been > > a choice. > > Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities. But mostly for the old-school programmers. Today, most groups employ Python. Go check for yourself if you do not trust me. For instance, see 2021. Inguva Pavan, Bhute Vijesh, Cheng Thomas, Walker Pierre; "Introducin= g students to research codes: A short course on solving partial differential equations in Python". Education for Chemical Engineers, Volume 36, Pages = 1-11. > And around Emacs. Everywhere else it is completely > marginalized. And if you think about what the universities > are, and what Emacs is - Lisp has underperformed grossly if > one assumes it is more expressive and powerful than any other > language. If it is, then it is a joke. But it isn't and it > isn't, it is just a marginalized programming language, like > boxing is a fringe sport or whatever. It still exists, all > is good. As outlined, the focus should be on C. Just knowing and using a single language is the strategy of fools. > > The best education one can get today is by self discovery. > > Schools are not the way. > > They actually do give classes in philosophy. > > >> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial > >> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs > >> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024. > > > > There is nothing controversial, one simple has to see how > > things are in specific situations. > > Very controversial, if it is boasting like hockey talk or > self-PR it is okay but we can't say that with a straight face > to the youngsters. Not many of us anyway. One simply has to look at things the way they are. If one does that, there is no controversy. The youngsters should not look up to anybody, not even to us. > > The designers of Lisp had to deal with much more things. > > Hence its design has been very well thought out by extremely > > good designers. Today there are many programmers, but good > > system designers are rare despite the increase in systematic > > education strategies. > > I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it > happened that way. > > As for educated people, the skills today and the volume of > people doing technology including programming is astronomical > compared to 1958 and also to 1985. But the number of world renowned system designers has gone down. Certainly few of the caliber as Richard Stallman, Guy Steele, Leslie Lamport, Edsger Dijkstra, etc. > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > >