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envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131938 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 8:43 PM > From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs i18n > > Thibaut Verron wrote: > > >> They used to speak French, now they speak English. > >> > > > > I don't know what they used to speak, but nowadays they > > speak their own language afaik. > > They used to speak French, that was the langauge of diplomacy, > now they speak English. > > > We see the effect of this when all EU treaties are > > translated in all the official languages of the EU (which, > > luckily, still include English). > > Well, they have resources to do that, and hire themselves and > each other to do the job for the right price. A lot is for > political reasons, also. But, obviously I don't know how > everything happens there, but of course the international > language is English there as well as everywhere else. > > >> We see traces of this in for example the Euro Vision Song > >> Contest where they tell the score in English and French. > > > > Is that diplomacy now? :) > > I think it is! It is a competition between nation and about > national pride. All this focus on identification with a nation must go away. Particularly in a today's market economy (capitalism is long gone). After the collapse of the berlin wall, many thought about freedom, but all we got since then has been more borders and isolation. A dystopian reality rather than an opportunity for exploration and seeking. > But it is also just a show, of course. > Commercial, monetary. Just like IIHF, too bad the French > didn't have a team this year (they play the B tournament, with > a bunch of Canadian guys, I think, so hopefully we see them > again soon). > > FYI I've played ice hockey with Canadian guys from Quebec - > you know of course that they were separatists in the 70s - now > (well, this was 5-10 years ago) now these guys spoke English > in a way that was inseparable from any US or English-speaking > Canadian dude, no French accent, nothing. Reality, "man". > > > Okay my bad. Might I still assume that I have met more > > French scientists and programmers than you? Most of them > > speak very broken English, and hate it. > > Then it is a matter of attitude. Most Swedish people enjoy > speaking English a lot actually, and in the tech world it > makes sense as well, but even so most people get over it after > the initial love affair, of course we don't want to speak > English to countrymen we meet in the street or to our parents > (who speak good enough, sometimes excellent English, my mother > speaks good French as well BTW, and German, and Spanish, my > father's English is so-so, he speaks OK German tho, I speak > and write English fluently but not always correctly of course, > I can read French to some extent and I speak get-by Russian, > this may sound like a lot of languages everywhere but > I consider my skills at a pretty basic or low level, I didn't > score the top marks in school by any means, and if it hadn't > been for technology, education, student life, and talking like > this on Usenet/mailing lists and IRC, I don't think my English > had been on a so-so (or lower) level as well). I also speak many languages. > > I'm flattered that you take me as an example, but I speak > > and write English on a daily basis precisely because I don't > > live in France. > > Yes, hah, you are allowed to speak French about technology in > France and everywhere else where you meet French-speaking > people, sweet heavens! It is just very impractical for you and > everyone else if you for example write source in French, and > you will put yourself at a huge disadvantage if you cannot > read books and source and web pages in English, and _we_ then > also cannot benefit from _you_ if you choose that path, as > I've said many times now. But you are not so no worries about > that, it is just this charade over and over, unbelievable! The biggest problem today is people identifying with this and that. > > In France I was speaking 99.9% French, including at work. > > We would be writing a paper in English and discussing in > > French about which words to use. I did part of my education in France. And was respected for my capabiliti= es. Same happened in England, Spain, Russia. When I wanted to get a piece of = meat I spoke spanish in spain. > The French students I met were 20-25 years old and they were > fluent speaking English, in a couple of years or a decade at > the most the French people will be as fluent as them, only at > 15-20 instead, it is inevitable, French people are proud of > their engineering skills and everyone wants to take part of > the international world, including the French, you can pretend > to be annoyed by it all you want, as long as you still do it, > which is the case clearly, I'm fine... well, I am annoyed by > the whole charade, which the French are the only ones who do, > interestingly enough, but I know you are here anyway so it > doesn't matter really. And those who are not will come. > > And a couple of generations more it will be all natural, no > one will even think about not doing it. > > > And France is far from the worst place to speak English. > > Try a random Chinese or Japanese or Russian student. > > Try a random Turkish or Thai or Ivorian student. > > No! Well, Thai or Ivorian students I never met but Chinese, > Japanese, Russian, and Turkish I all met, a lot, my dad even > has a house in Turkey, their technology students speak English > excellent, just fine, or are getting there, Russians in > particular are a weird bunch in this respect, ha, there are > some who refuse and some who are like Western Europe (i.e., > very good), but it is inevitable, their education has always > been awesome and they are into everything Western, it is > inevitable that the "English-speakers" will win that battle, > and it doesn't have to take that long, these processes are all > under way sine long... (And actually it isn't a battle, the > Russians that "refuse" do that because they think they cannot, > they are in a "blocked mode", often they rely on a friend who > speaks excellent English but they themselves want to speak as > well and one forces them to speak they are happy about that > and learn very fast, if you think I'm generalizing now I am > but I've seen it so many times I know its true, ha.) > > > And to be clear, it's not about the people. Some languages > > are extremely different from English (how hard is it to > > learn English from Swedish?). Some countries have extremely > > poor English teaching in lower education. > > No, no, everyone is capable of learning English, some small > (or smallish) countries and language groups (e.g., Sweden, the > Netherlands, ...) has had a head start since it was so > apparently necessary for one reason, and there are other > reasons as well, but everyone else is equally and more than > capable and as we have seen with Russians and in particular > with the Germans who has had a rocket-career in this respect > it doesn't have to take that long, it will all come, so > whatever head start Sweden or other countries might have had - > well, good for us :) we were always clever merchants and > warriors at the same time :)) - but the point is that head > start for us won't mean anything sooner than we would like, > actually :) > > >> Wrong! They do, and they do even more and better for each > >> year, and the very small group who don't, well, they have > >> a HUGE problem that should be fixed by them putting ALL > >> their efforts learning English as soon as possible > > > > Not realistic. Instead, they think that their English is > > good enough and will improve as they go. > > Those who don't learn English will be at a disadvantage in > every aspect. People don't want that, it doesn't benefit them > or their games and it isn't fun, girls want to talk to foreign > guys and guys want to play games and watch stupid movies and > so on and so forth etc etc etc - I mean, why on Earth would > one not do that in general? And in particular a tech or > science person? I don't understand, why? The Swedish world is > small but the French world isn't big enough by far, sorry. > Deal with it... > > > But learning a difficult topic will always be easier in your > > own language. Should there not be enough people in france to do translations in french if need be. Which means they see value in what non-french people write. People can argue how much they want, but one cannot force other to read your stuff if they don't want to. > No, not with technology once you have made that step, then it > is more difficult, well, more _impractical_ I should say, to > speak about it, and in particular _write_ about it, in your > own language, actually. English is already the international > language and the language of technology and science, if you > want to be an international warrior you need this gun in your > belt as well, use only the French guns - you are gunned down, > sorry. > > > Yes. But to those who know some English but for whom it > > requires effort, it would mean that they get a first contact > > with new difficult topics without language hurdles. > > They will still be able to access the complete documentation > > in English when needed. > > They must and they will take the step, I'm positive, I'm 100% > convinced. Go to a party with 20 year old, as a field trip. > Go to the cutest, most intelligent girl and the guy who is > most skilled with tools and the guy who is most skilled with > sport. They ALL SPEAK ENGLISH and see no problem with it. > This decides everything already at this point! Local languages were useful at a time where people stayed and functioned within their community. It worked as a support system. If something terrible happened in your life, you could go back to your clan and they would accept you and help you. > Translating huge books is just an immense wasted effort that > also have several negative effects that I've mentioned > already. For example this book > > @book{introduction-to-algorithms, > author =3D {Cormen and Leiserson and Rivest and Stein}, > edition =3D {2nd edition}, > isbn =3D {0-268-53196-8}, > publisher =3D {MIT Press}, > title =3D {Introduction to Algorithms}, > year =3D {2001} > } > > It is 1184 pages! > > And that format (book heft) isn't uncommon! Perhaps one day artificial intelligence could do it. That would make great possibilities. I have read articles in french, spanish, portugese. If those writings are valuable to you, you will put the effort to learn or get a translation= . You can learn one or two languages pretty well to write, but beyond that, becomes too much work and people usually have a quite limited life-span if you have big aspirations. > Are you going to translate this to French because some French > guys aren't good enough English readers? This reasoning is > insane, I don't know how you get it to work in your heads, > that are rational in every other sense, including this one, > but only for your personal life and activities? Are your > compatriots that stupid? And you some kind of elite or > something? And you are gonna translate 1084 page books on > algorithms to remedy that? Ha, listen, it doesn't make any > sense any of it! Hahaha :) There is a group of mathematicians, called the Bourbaki Group, originally = intended to make a textbook in analysis. Eventually became a group french mathemat= ical purists that became too rigid in their approach. Applied mathematicians c= onsider the approach too restrictive in solving current problems of computation. > >> and in the worst case they would be deluding themselves > >> thinking they are so great, while actually living in > >> a bubble 10 000 miles behind everyone else! > > > > With this kind of attitude, some of them just might. > > Talk about delusions... > > But it is true, remove English from the world of technology > you can never keep up and you are restricted to work in the > fields were other people have translated stuff. French people > had I think with feudalism, right? That's what's gonna happen? > Haha :) > > Native French output in terms of computers and programming and > (technology and science in general) cannot in any sense or in > any way be compared to the corresponding output in English. > Restrict yourself to French, that's the stupidest move in > anyone's personal or professional career, you just have to > deal with that reality, that doesn't work anymore -if it ever > did that world is long GONE. Gone but not forgotten, it would > seem! Hah. But know you will come and be here just as everyone > else, this recurring charade notwithstanding... > > > Books get translated. Wikipedia is translated. Is it all > > negative to you? > > Yes, if the explicit or implicit reason is that people are bad > at English! Of course there can be commercial, personal, > emotional etc reasons to do whatever but in terms of > technology restricting oneself to one's native language (well, > unless that's English, d'oh) that would be a huge blunder, no > one should do it and certainly not live under the illusion > that translations can make one not have to come HERE, where > the game is! You think French hockey players should only play > in the French league? NO, they should come to use here to > Sweden and Finland, where the level is ... another :) > Meanwhile WE should aim for the NHL and KHL, ha :) If enough > of them come, after their careers peak, they will not be good > enough for Sweden and Finland so they'll go back to France, > where they will bring the level up with their skills and > experience, and before you know it the French league can be > competitive with perhaps Germany, Litva, Belarus, Kazakhstan > ... well, if you send A LOT of players anyway! But you will > never ever be at the level of Sweden or Finland and never ever > in a million years will the French hockey league be competitive > with NHL and the Russian Super League. So the only way you can > compete with the NHL and KHL is _in_ the NHL or KHL, and these > guys show it is indeed possible: (3 French guys in the NHL) > > > There are 50 Swedish guys in the NHL BTW: > > > and 50 Finnish guys: > > > > Heck, *you* wrote a book in Swedish! > > Please, you or anyone else get me a contract in NYC (which is > the publishing capital of the world BTW, tho the biggest > publishing house is English, Penguin, right? I think Hachette > Livre is number 2 but they also have their HQ in NYC) - you or > anyone else offer me a contract and instead of ranting here > I'd be more than happy to translate it to English or write > another book in English for that matter :) How about a book on > a tree house project? > > Or Elisp robotics? > > > >>> And all over the world, a lot of students who do not feel > >>> confident with English treat the lack of available > >>> translations as a significant hurdle, or even a barrier. > >> > >> 100% incorrect > > > > You really have no idea > > I know so many people have take the step and those who don't > will be at a disadvantage, I don't think they like that so > they too will take the step, it makes sense and we see it > everywhere every day, why on Earth would it NOT happen? It is > already happening all over the world! Even here, I can go to > one of the student house quarters right now and there will be > people from all over the world - we have 42 559 students here > - all of > them will speak excellent English, and if we ask about their > parent some will say their parents speak good English, some > so-so, and some not at all, but guess what, these people are > soon parents _themselves_, people use more and more technology > and consume more and more culture, watch movies, read > magazines, watch DIY YouTube videos how to demolish their > carbon bicycles, while trying to raise the saddle and learning > something in the process - it is inevitable. RESISTANCE IS > FUTILE! > > > It's not really the same thing. Nobody asks *you* to write > > or read a manual in French or Chinese. > > OF COURSE everyone is allowed to do it, I'm not going to do > anything more that write these messages, actually I'm getting > a little tired of it by now, I think I'll bookmark these 3-4 > rantings the next time the French connection get their way up > to Annapurna (the first 8000+ mountain to be summited BTW, by > a French expedition, everyone gives them credit for this - > except the Swiss. why? because of langauge? can't have > a brother succeed? but Swiss mountaineering expertise is > beyond question - Mt. Everest OTOH was first summited by the > English but none of the two people reaching the top was from > England, ha, typical of them :) maybe the most difficult > mountain in the world, K2, was first summited by the Italians. > of the Polar explorers we have respect for the English > super-human efforts but there is no doubt in our minds the > best in this respect were the Norwegians.) > > > But yes, I guess French diplomats make it a point to remind > > everyone that English domination should not be taken for > > granted. You can call it tradition. :) > > Yep, Frenchh hangup (Frenchh =3D French and only French) > > > But when I say that translated manuals are helpful, it's not > > part of that tradition, it's from my experience meeting and > > teaching to French students. Many of them simply do not > > bother or are blocked from learning a topic because there is > > no entry-level material in their language. That's a fact. > > Manuals - maybe in the 70-80s but I'm not sure, now - harmful. > > Textbooks - sure, if you have the manpower and resources and > political and individual desire to do that instead of > something more interesting, ha, but remember that > English-language university undergraduate textbooks are often > ~1000 pages. They call everything before or below PhD > "Introduction" which is fun because again the books are > often >1000 pages. So if you want to translate the "intros" by > all means, do it. > > And before you say it, what about the French production, which > is in French already? That is a competitive bout but not > close, and certainly not a draw. If you try to compete in that > sense you will loose. The only way for you to compete is to do > it in English like everyone else. You already do it, now you > have to 1) deal with it; and 2) do it even more, and the > French honor will be restored, despite the IT and computing > setback to the accursed Anglo-Americans... Perelman could have written in russian, but who would have read them ! The most important people working in the field were american or british. And we all think highly of Grisha. > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > >