From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Modifier Keys and the Archaic Meta Key Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 22:30:19 +0100 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17782"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Help Gnu Emacs To: Francis Belliveau Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 25 22:34:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kWneS-0004WB-3a for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 22:34:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55674 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWneP-0007kT-7d for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 17:34:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59614) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWnar-0007k8-OD for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 17:30:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:46567) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWnao-0004JO-Pk for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 17:30:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1603661419; bh=ngKjtxuBtYv05ePNPHQmwYlnxIL2HRCTFUiNEWZmlA4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=THf7pqJD9tsO2W8UER7TmcG2elyU6f5UHsLal/QVg9Lwx0n4TNrZ5iTH+sEMLcitM m1rt57doXGBnyRPyqurUzJpSB+LI/jtQ3XjNKM9iPyBt1ZOQ5PawkL2cPwOwfJRp4n BPEZ2EdHQV9H/Yjb08Nbmo2FjL2/ISVdhREFENx0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs14.server.lan [172.19.170.182]) (via HTTP); Sun, 25 Oct 2020 22:30:19 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:DoDgh8Xs0nhHLbreMKVvTI/YruKPYl5EfwuvL77C69OC+3FR8p9qkhh+tpcuFNLXHUc0V IRnFVled5wDDAihi85Fg4D5tL+QwdjvHyOng76KYq+DBotTyQkxwwLNVaCOoMpnRo3FIVoHtz2LU DmkCsBuiWYPjximn71LwykKuJ9kadT206J76cZh/2RkFPiw3kjCy4WtnQif4eAXZ9EWjtoWxjgw0 F/r9R2/nx828XPTBF3OSu8dzRfhH+aFTPNoTyXq7tDNVCqg3gWr6vlc8k3WFOnL8bmr56SeJZdfw rw= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1nNCs6gOES0=:TpPiX428oK33MiTZY9zrC7 W2TI4cWbFg+QjEjjv1xchH45ZncF3yOyx8oGWEfHWy93C93xkHj0pYgZTL/cVNuVLbIxbSITu P3UJCTbfEHEoGF4oT9Kwwe6faYnb4SIdGyVRV2O1AHCTNGhor/zfjavCpUN23Zpci7OTNWnjM hrLFMQdp6gdHMz+dNqxa3KNqLE5k8HtuZBI4fkjxh6fEMCm3DEqH4o7RougdSu6mRsxU3mOzY oiLrOAiwy/SD/9Wlo+ULnqXs5+PcRjTmvIzEfHKNR9EkRiIklt/WbGK9kPsVA2cc8E0LE3bgX TL6T2jhv6KJex+PKMcKc5UO0VM2QKCgg7R2nnPPGlzj2x4tC0wp9pisH28FMok14xN9FOycGU RyKfcI9mzVNz3IMCc25g64ICGo//MuPlU9wMjigfe+vgCCZGGKGv+t6gRWeLzcZrelg4SkXcu f8igFeqfkgl16oRGTTNp7S13ZTNQzNDClWqPdhC0BM10h8KR++lkQCRNwYz+7R6+1fStrPnW9 3dckAGh6TL0BCyaTaqaYONeNy0aj6U7W3txICkhBey7p9umS5XuDBzvwecqPES0Te0Gh8CLKl WmEjMKODtc9p4= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.22; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/25 17:30:21 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:124716 Archived-At: > It seems to me that only makes sense on your keyboard, not mine. > I have no problem with allowing users the ability to define other modifi= er keys, > but that would likely require the underlying code to support more morifi= er bits > that is does currently. C* I was just discussing the customary modifier keys historically associat= ed with Emacs. There are five: {C,M,S,H,s}. > > Consequently the Alternate Control Modifier Key would simply > > be associated with Alt, but to the key as Priority 2, which > > can be Alt, Esc, etc. > > That seems like adding a lot of words with no real value-added. If ther= e are > no keyboards in existance today > with a key labeled Meta, then the mean= ing is > clear that it is the other modifier key without needing to resort to exc= essive > verbosity. C* That is not always precise because Emacs also recognises the Hyper and = Super Keys as well, which I use - although using hardware remapping for the loca= tion of those keys. > On my keyboard the keys are labeled (center to left) space, command, alt= /option, > control, function. Depending on Emacs version the Meta key seems to cha= nge between > Command and Option, I tend to adapt. However, I am getting to like usin= g option C* The new idea is to dissociate what is actually written on a particular = keyboard. We name the Modifier Keys as "Control, Alternate Control, Hyper, Shift, Su= per". Then associate the names to what one actual has printed on the keyboard. = One can use xev and xmodmap for that. Example, one can say Alternate Control is "= Alt" on Peter's Keyboard whilst it is "Meta" or "Esc" on Shirley's Keyboard. W= hilst the Alternate Control Key is "Option" on Frances' Keyboard. > As far as I know the Function key is an OS-level key that modifies the k= eystrokes > sent to the application, bnut I could be wrong. C* There are two key codes associated with each key, one communicates wit= h Applications, whilst the other communicates with the Hardware. They are different codes= . =2D-------------------- Christopher Dimech Chief Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation) - Geophysical Simulation - Geological Subsurface Mapping - Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation - Natural Resource Exploration and Production - Free Software Advocacy > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 9:12 PM > From: "Francis Belliveau" > To: No recipient address > Cc: "Help Gnu Emacs" > Subject: Re: Modifier Keys and the Archaic Meta Key > > > > > On Oct 25, 2020, at 09:46, Christopher Dimech wrote: > > > > Rather than referring to the five principal Modifier Key, > > immediately by Key Mnemonics, it is more useful to have > > a name for them categorised by priority. > > > > The Five Principal Modifier Keys can be called Control, > > Alternate, Hyper, Shift, Super, then associate any mnemonic > > one wants (Ctrl, Ctl) (Meta, Alt, Esc). > > It seems to me that only makes sense on your keyboard, not mine. > I have no problem with allowing users the ability to define other modifi= er keys, but > that would likely require the underlying code to support more morifier b= its that is > does currently. C* One can split Ctrl_L from Ctrl_R (and Alt_L from Alt_R, ... etc). > > It is recognised that the Control Modifier Key and the > > Meta Modifier Key are exclusively and most widely used > > Modifier Keys for Emacs Built-In Keybindings. Consequently > > I group them together, one call it Control, whilst the other > > as Alternate Control. It makes the use of key much more precise. > > > > Consequently the Alternate Control Modifier Key would simply > > be associated with Alt, but to the key as Priority 2, which > > can be Alt, Esc, etc. > > That seems like adding a lot of words with no real value-added. If ther= e are no keyboards in existance today with a key labeled Meta, then the me= aning is clear that it is the other modifier key without needing to resort= to excessive verbosity. > > > I agree of the utility of possibly more Modifier Keys. However, stick= ing > > with officially Five Major Modifier Key for now is adequate. I custom= arily > > use Mechanical Keyboards with Colemak Key Variation, and have to rebin= d certain > > Key Sequences that are built-in into Emacs. I also remap the order of= keys > > from (C, s, M) to (s, M, C). In this way priority increases from righ= t to > > left. The C Key is mapped to the key immediately to the left of the s= pace bar > > as in the original setup of the Lisp Keyboards. However I do not simp= ly switch > > the Meta and Control Key as many have done, but organise the Keymaps b= y priority > > going outward. > > > > On my keyboard the keys are labeled (center to left) space, command, alt= /option, control, function. > Depending on Emacs version the Meta key seems to change between Command = and Option, I tend to adapt. However, I am getting to like using option s= ince it is distinct from the OS use of command. Option seems to be an appl= ication-specific modifier whereas Command has OS utility. As far as I kno= w the Function key is an OS-level key that modifies the keystrokes sent to= the application, bnut I could be wrong. > > Fran > > > >