From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: RE: [External] : Indentation with spaces Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 06:45:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87fskezg7s.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87bkuzu6dx.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27056"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emanuel Berg , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 12 06:47:05 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o0FVA-0006nl-8A for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 06:47:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33198 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0FV8-0003GO-NH for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 00:47:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54466) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0FTO-0003Fx-N2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 00:45:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:44503) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0FTM-0005fF-FY for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 00:45:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1655009103; bh=7xNNZEK+lKVLgYKr73bvBdKUfQQ2k45LteiebT9WHpA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=fRh5fHg1NXPtnlHhlz26DM8Yv/kmUk2JJPT9XDIJI4N2U+3VuYXQsZ8wC5asU7sbP Ebj6gkdOgaNbTfbDD8tX3DsiVdltquaZ3FQnYl2DYe6aGEFBpJo2adskTNnZ5YrSPh fqT4+VRUh3BU+adgQVYyYSA/oTGR+Aw5KMjHCbN4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs05.server.lan [172.19.170.173]) (via HTTP); Sun, 12 Jun 2022 06:45:03 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:MVRfzzAyhK5Z5CAvO3dXNRAIazrxGCJ6a+C2yE8FG1b/87EuvNnlDo+IgKRF4p6bUTFV5 SPWkFaVtnO5J3FOLvawioIgb9JsfyK/ZlNOIOcbzs3WQqzydnWE4Cxj/fUT0uAbvaj2JJL3jdmBi WsY7N6cGtvgmyQr3DOxgFEWZDdQ08oGVQZEVvh5JQQ4qvza836mSnaEVIxZW9VYEqkUrQnjueodJ rlHJ5TapA0tHn/cqnheCeDLkAJmlxrwbjVqvYI8btus7nZS1IQl8pwHI5GwCEGlZVnVBWs/c+BaN K0= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ljhowqeX4LY=:ZvNxAw4b9RUYeF40ZN3UiD magIT29AeVYzCkWxQiKxwkOTK6zQF4jxz85fuBe0nFFIjhZ0oVc0hrVlELfynwc1jf45OTGl1 L4PdUTPf2kgOuM4vwJCGNZJVxPQqPNOLGjJPrpZE8gJyy2i32XR/QkiJfNtxaNKUI9uGwuOBK 1q9Ybxhl5qvfNvPKxV9uZQRohf2g6/nHGfFN35hn1aCxOldX9SuMaibptUv8PFB2IIEiqqT/b LMkTf048TrQ2cbqrM39mk7+RU7z25farsiTXQ5HGnpwnwcHzS+Z4avUK8znYiN9/OSgrINuR4 baTPpXAAX7KVDEdtrRapl5SNDBqc66kLZaenZdxv5QrmD0kJSoWXMjEoxWH9E3ny2oQTIb7k2 8aD/QtMUn6heREuZlAm6YSDP8POfBmw1LhkGbIoGIaHtgOMurhrPal56/PlDJN6EnTNSErm93 l2yPKCfYQulpB1G6WEwYOPJLHve88jEQg0oN9GYxjeKtGfrqPHwnh1oCq35+8naW86WTx2uMT /IyKvySi4RJk79zOqHZANccnW6Be/Xqh4YhUI2f6gb7M3kSk7XXcQfQc3aPq+ANWBoYkZxfmU y1rFNBslb3OT/BUWex9ysZQ/HcBXvwkmdygeUCcC3mSC98HX4LMeUW1VZrmI+yLrdwnhVjW0k YO7A7CC5v46poPerVeZcR3ifNgFPHF93IU6SrVjb7lB6MdZ0WPblgJQYoT6tlVa4w3qURLksO 6kO6Ex2D/wQoXNaxQ3W7zWZMjXlDgRplD034JVawPDsh/8mHHkocMwDacYSkHr+LbCYa4sLQ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:137712 Archived-At: > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 3:43 AM > From: "Drew Adams" > To: "Emanuel Berg" , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" > Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces > > > >>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? > > >>> Tabs should not be used. > > >> > > >> The world is split between 3 factions: > > >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs. > > >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the > > >> use of SPC instead of TAB to indent. > > >> - those users who have a life. That world view in incorrect. With Fortran Fixed-Form Legacy Code you will find people using a variety of styles. Some use only TABs. Others use spaces. The problem is not about the TABS and SPACES, it is about formatting. Emacs accepts TABS and SPACES but then forces its own stylistic arrangement when electric-indent-mode is enabled. This Emacs feature, ends up modifying the original code style, something that is commonly avoided when dealing with very old legacy code. The point is that whilst emacs allows the introduction of tabs and spaces, Emacs cannot be allowed to take decisions on where the code is placed in the buffer, if that conflicts with what the code designer wants to do. The solution does not look straightforward. Thusly, a request for a speci= al setup for a major-mode to cater for these situations is understandable. > > > Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies > > > then I can now say I have a life! > > > > I don't get it joke > > If CWA holds, and we know/assume the world has > only those 3 factions, and if neither of the first > two cases holds then the third must be the case. > > IOW, if it's not true that you absolutely can't > tolerate TABs, and it's not true that you > absolutely can't tolerate SPCs, then you have a > life. > > On the other hand, if OWA holds, maybe something > other than those 3 cases holds... > > > but > > > > The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that > > what is not known to be true must be false. The Open World > > Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words, it is the > > assumption that what is not known to be true is > > simply unknown. [1] > > > > Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up > > with CWA, when is that useful > > It's simpler to reason with. If you don't know > something to be true then you conclude that it's > false. This is a common approach - databases, > Prolog etc. Cf. `completing-read' with arg > REQIUIRE-MATCH =3D t. In 1895, the famous british physicist William Thompson remarked that "heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible". > Of course, one can interpret "no match" as just > "dunno" or "unproven", but often it's acted on > as "false". And as Tomas perhaps hinted, it's > not just about classifying as true, false, and > dunno. > > It's about the difference between any such > closed classification and a representation or > system that's based on the idea that both > (a) the set of stuff that's classified and > (b) the classification of that stuff both > (1) are inherently incomplete and (2) can > change. > > CWA is akin to not-proven-guilty-means-innocent > (or not-proven-innocent-means-guilty). OWA > assumes only that not-proven means not-proven. > > > and what's closed about it, > > It doesn't allow for the possibility that there > are unknowns. It assumes that, at any time, > what's known to be true is all there is. > > It's a useful simplification. But it presents > difficulties wrt the nature of real knowledge > and its evolution. > > > that you know what you know to be true and every thing else > > you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete > > state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed about it? > > Exactly. At any given time. And a system that > allows for increasing or changing knowledge has > somehow to deal with non-monotonic changes in > what's known (in particular). > > > [1] > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dataversity.net/introduction- > > to-open-world-assumption-vs-closed-world- > > assumption/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!NmVaOzeFvXD6WCus5nkkRpZP7Fiih7FVO7UUsE= X > > d-B3ZRQ6mzozldTZQvG4Re0gXUeyMdIAKE0Bpn36B$ > >