Toggle appointment notification

Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

Want to toggle between enable and disable appointment notification and have
put a defun as so below.  I reckon that both  appt-activate and appt-check
are needed but not absolutely aware of what and how they activate things
for appointments.

What would be a right approach to toggle between enable and disable using
a single key-sequence for my case here?

(defun diary-appt-ntf (n)
   "Switches diary appointment notification."

   (appt-activate n)  ; Activates diary appointment notification

   (if (< n 1)
     (appt-check 1)    ; Checks appointments and updates reminders.
     (appt-check nil)) ; Disables appt-check
)

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> Want to toggle between enable and disable appointment
> notification and have put a defun as so below. I reckon that
> both appt-activate and appt-check are needed but not absolutely
> aware of what and how they activate things for appointments.
>
> What would be a right approach to toggle between enable and
> disable using a single key-sequence for my case here?

For a single key to toggle, branch on the current state!

One approach would be - from the appt source [1] I see that
`appt-activate', when used to INactivate, does this

  (setq appt-timer nil)

and then doesn't reset it. So maybe that can be used as a state
variable, if there isn't a particular one for the purpose?

> (defun diary-appt-ntf (n)
>    "Switches diary appointment notification."
>
>    (appt-activate n)  ; Activates diary appointment notification
>
>    (if (< n 1)
>      (appt-check 1)    ; Checks appointments and updates reminders.
>      (appt-check nil)) ; Disables appt-check
> )

Looks good, so you know Elisp, alright then 1) find a variable or
buffer (exists/doesn't exist) to express running or don't run,
2) write a function that branches on that and then calls the
above function accordingly, 3) bind a key to the branch function.

Good luck, and do ask again/tell how you solved it :)


[1] /usr/local/share/emacs/28.0.50/lisp/calendar/appt.el.gz

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

>> (defun diary-appt-ntf (n)
>>    "Switches diary appointment notification."
>>
>>    (appt-activate n)  ; Activates diary appointment notification
>>
>>    (if (< n 1)
>>      (appt-check 1)    ; Checks appointments and updates reminders.
>>      (appt-check nil)) ; Disables appt-check
>> )
>
> Looks good [...]

I mean _the Elisp_ looks good. I don't use appt so I don't know
if what happens with `appt-check' is perhaps implied when you
activate/inactivate appt with `appt-activate'. Read the
docstrings and browse the code to find out, perhaps!

Still, if what you do makes sense, it is nothing to worry about,
really. Doing the right thing twice isn't a problem :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Andreas]

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On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 04:47:55 AM, pietru@caramail.com wrote:

> Want to toggle between enable and disable appointment notification and have
> put a defun as so below.  I reckon that both  appt-activate and appt-check
> are needed but not absolutely aware of what and how they activate things
> for appointments.
>
> What would be a right approach to toggle between enable and disable using
> a single key-sequence for my case here?
>
> (defun diary-appt-ntf (n)
>    "Switches diary appointment notification."
>
>    (appt-activate n)  ; Activates diary appointment notification
>
>    (if (< n 1)
>      (appt-check 1)    ; Checks appointments and updates reminders.
>      (appt-check nil)) ; Disables appt-check
> )
>
>
>

-- 
Regards,
Andreas

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Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

There is one thing that is bugging me while testing my approach.  If I get
the state of a function, how can I then print the state in the messages
buffer?

(get 'appt-ntf-cycle 'state)




> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 6:03 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> >> (defun diary-appt-ntf (n)
> >>    "Switches diary appointment notification."
> >>
> >>    (appt-activate n)  ; Activates diary appointment notification
> >>
> >>    (if (< n 1)
> >>      (appt-check 1)    ; Checks appointments and updates reminders.
> >>      (appt-check nil)) ; Disables appt-check
> >> )
> >
> > Looks good [...]
>
> I mean _the Elisp_ looks good. I don't use appt so I don't know
> if what happens with `appt-check' is perhaps implied when you
> activate/inactivate appt with `appt-activate'. Read the
> docstrings and browse the code to find out, perhaps!
>
> Still, if what you do makes sense, it is nothing to worry about,
> really. Doing the right thing twice isn't a problem :)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 21:37]:
> There is one thing that is bugging me while testing my approach.  If I get
> the state of a function, how can I then print the state in the messages
> buffer?
> 
> (get 'appt-ntf-cycle 'state)

Do you know (message "%s" state) function?

If you obtain any value you may put it instead of `state'.

For long time I used this function:

(defun message-any (any)
  "Message anything to minibuffer"
  (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 7:52 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, moasenwood@zoho.eu
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 21:37]:
> > There is one thing that is bugging me while testing my approach.  If I get
> > the state of a function, how can I then print the state in the messages
> > buffer?
> >
> > (get 'appt-ntf-cycle 'state)
>
> Do you know (message "%s" state) function?

I know message but was doing as such and did not show up

(message (get 'typh-appt-ntf-cycle 'state))

> If you obtain any value you may put it instead of `state'.
>
> For long time I used this function:
>
> (defun message-any (any)
>   "Message anything to minibuffer"
>   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))

Smart

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 7:52 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: moasenwood@zoho.eu, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 21:37]:
> > There is one thing that is bugging me while testing my approach.  If I get
> > the state of a function, how can I then print the state in the messages
> > buffer?
> >
> > (get 'appt-ntf-cycle 'state)
>
> Do you know (message "%s" state) function?
>
> If you obtain any value you may put it instead of `state'.
>
> For long time I used this function:
>
> (defun message-any (any)
>   "Message anything to minibuffer"
>   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))

How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
The message would then give me some more clarity.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > (defun message-any (any)
> >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> 
> How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> The message would then give me some more clarity.

(message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:23 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, moasenwood@zoho.eu
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > (defun message-any (any)
> > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> >
> > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > The message would then give me some more clarity.
>
> (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))

Genius!

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:23:31PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > (defun message-any (any)
> > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> > 
> > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > The message would then give me some more clarity.
> 
> (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))

Or, if the heading is a constant, just

  (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:53 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:23:31PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > > (defun message-any (any)
> > > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> > >
> > > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > > The message would then give me some more clarity.
> >
> > (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))
>
> Or, if the heading is a constant, just
>
>   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))

Super

> Cheers
>  - t
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

>   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))

Or equivalent

    (message "my heading: %S" any)

, no?

Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[daniela-spit]

I have gone into appt-activate


(defun appt-activate (&optional arg)
  "Toggle checking of appointments.
With optional numeric argument ARG, turn appointment checking on if
ARG is positive, otherwise off."
  (interactive "P")
  (let ((appt-active appt-timer))
    (setq appt-active (if arg (> (prefix-numeric-value arg) 0)
                        (not appt-active)))

In some areas of mathematical usage, zero is both positive and negative.
Sometimes for computational purposes, it may be necessary to consider
signed zeros, that is, treating +0 and −0 as two different numbers. 

Would it be possible to clarify this in the defun description string,
saying: 

ARG is positive (ARG > 0), otherwise off.


> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:53 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:23:31PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > > (defun message-any (any)
> > > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> > > 
> > > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > > The message would then give me some more clarity.
> > 
> > (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))
> 
> Or, if the heading is a constant, just
> 
>   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> 
> Cheers
>  - t
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

> Would it be possible to clarify this in the defun description string,
> saying:
>
> ARG is positive (ARG > 0), otherwise off.

Would you really want to add that for every command where it could
matter?  That would be a lot.

BTW, it wouldn't clarify the issue in my opinion: since +0 is probably
not negative, and when we assume it is different from 0, i.e. not `=' 0,
I would guess it could be > 0, so the above sentence would still not
make it clear how a hypothetical +0 would behave.

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 3:47 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> > Would it be possible to clarify this in the defun description string,
> > saying:
> >
> > ARG is positive (ARG > 0), otherwise off.
>
> Would you really want to add that for every command where it could
> matter?  That would be a lot.

I see.

> BTW, it wouldn't clarify the issue in my opinion: since +0 is probably
> not negative, and when we assume it is different from 0, i.e. not `=' 0,
> I would guess it could be > 0, so the above sentence would still not
> make it clear how a hypothetical +0 would behave.

How about putting a note in the Emacs Tutorial.  It is short and every new user
reads. And say that by positive we always mean greater than zero.  In french
speaking countries, zero is considered positive.

Daniela


> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

> How about putting a note in the Emacs Tutorial.  It is short and every
> new user reads. And say that by positive we always mean greater than
> zero.  In french speaking countries, zero is considered positive.

Oh wow, that is something different.  positif vs. strictement positif, I
see: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/positive

Have you "played" the French or the English version of the tutorial btw?

I think (info "(emacs) Arguments") could also be a good place to add a
short note about this.

Thanks,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:23 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> > How about putting a note in the Emacs Tutorial.  It is short and every
> > new user reads. And say that by positive we always mean greater than
> > zero.  In french speaking countries, zero is considered positive.
>
> Oh wow, that is something different.  positif vs. strictement positif, I
> see: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/positive
>
> Have you "played" the French or the English version of the tutorial btw?

French but does it matter?  We read english too.

But in Emacs, it is only for the tutorial that you can change the language,
not for the manual as well :/.

It is a problem because if someone gives me a link in english, I cannot
switch the section to french as I can do with the tutorial.

> I think (info "(emacs) Arguments") could also be a good place to add a
> short note about this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:23 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> > How about putting a note in the Emacs Tutorial.  It is short and every
> > new user reads. And say that by positive we always mean greater than
> > zero.  In french speaking countries, zero is considered positive.
>
> Oh wow, that is something different.  positif vs. strictement positif, I
> see: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/positive
>
> Have you "played" the French or the English version of the tutorial btw?
>
> I think (info "(emacs) Arguments") could also be a good place to add a
> short note about this.

Has been sometime since read the manual, but if I change the language,
Emacs always sends me to the beginning of the tutorial rather than keeping
to the same region I am reading in english.

> Thanks,
>
> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-12-02 06:05]:
> 
> 
> 
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 3:47 AM
> > From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >
> > > Would it be possible to clarify this in the defun description string,
> > > saying:
> > >
> > > ARG is positive (ARG > 0), otherwise off.
> >
> > Would you really want to add that for every command where it could
> > matter?  That would be a lot.
> 
> I see.
> 
> > BTW, it wouldn't clarify the issue in my opinion: since +0 is probably
> > not negative, and when we assume it is different from 0, i.e. not `=' 0,
> > I would guess it could be > 0, so the above sentence would still not
> > make it clear how a hypothetical +0 would behave.
> 
> How about putting a note in the Emacs Tutorial.  It is short and every new user
> reads. And say that by positive we always mean greater than zero.  In french
> speaking countries, zero is considered positive.

In my school in Europe we learned that -1 is first negative number.

But in programming one can define new context. When it says in
documentation ARG is positive (ARG > 0) it give definition what it
means in that specific context and so I understand it and use in that
definition. Dictionary says: 9. positive -- (greater than zero;
"positive numbers")

Definition not necessarily need to be related to mathematical
comparisons.

While 0 may be positive in comparison to negative numbers it is
definitely practically not positive as if there is nothing, there is
nothing. If you have one apple you have the apple, if you don't have
it is not there. There are different concepts.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> 
> Or equivalent
> 
>     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> 
> , no?

Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).

Cheers

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Formatting-Strings.html

 - t

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Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> >
> > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> >
> > Or equivalent
> >
> >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> >
> > , no?
>
> Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).

How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?

> Cheers
>
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Formatting-Strings.html
>
>  - t
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 01:05:07PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > >
> > > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > >
> > > Or equivalent
> > >
> > >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > >
> > > , no?
> >
> > Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> > manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).
> 
> How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?

Care to pose a more complete example?

As far as I understood you, you'd put a Lisp expression in the 2nd...nth
arguments of (message fmt ...), but I might be misunderstanding you
completely.

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 1:37 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 01:05:07PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > > > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > > >
> > > > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > > >
> > > > Or equivalent
> > > >
> > > >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > > >
> > > > , no?
> > >
> > > Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> > > manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).
> >
> > How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?
>
> Care to pose a more complete example?
>
> As far as I understood you, you'd put a Lisp expression in the 2nd...nth
> arguments of (message fmt ...), but I might be misunderstanding you
> completely.

As I read it, the format it is mainly for numerical and strings.

  (format "%s" arbitrary-string)

Although it mentions printed representation of the object

I am sure users would be more interested is printing results
of expressions.

But I suppose one should use "print", "prin1", and "princ"
for that.

(print OBJECT)

However, a valid format specification for conditional could be.

(message "Result: %s" (> 5 3))

%s mentions objects, but the sections seems to imply attention
to strings in "4.7 Formatting Strings".

I think this is quite valid:

  (format "%s" arbitrary-string)

But perhaps not completely true.

> Cheers
>  - t
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 02:15:20PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 1:37 PM
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 01:05:07PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> > > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > > > > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > > > >
> > > > > Or equivalent
> > > > >
> > > > >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > > > >
> > > > > , no?
> > > >
> > > > Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> > > > manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).
> > >
> > > How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?
> >
> > Care to pose a more complete example?
> >
> > As far as I understood you, you'd put a Lisp expression in the 2nd...nth
> > arguments of (message fmt ...), but I might be misunderstanding you
> > completely.
> 
> As I read it, the format it is mainly for numerical and strings.
> 
>   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)
> 
> Although it mentions printed representation of the object
> 
> I am sure users would be more interested is printing results
> of expressions.

But the result of an expression /is/ a Lisp object. That's
the whole point of Lisp!

So you can do:

  (format "look here: %S" (list (+ 3 4) (list 'a 'b 'c) (current-time-string) (current-fill-column)))

  => "look here: (7 (a b c) \"Wed Dec  2 14:42:30 2020\" 70)"

> But I suppose one should use "print", "prin1", and "princ"
> for that.

Use whatever is convenient, yes.

> However, a valid format specification for conditional could be.
> 
> (message "Result: %s" (> 5 3))

Yes, that works. Have you actually tried it? What is the result?
Does that match your expectations? If yes, why? If not, why not?

> %s mentions objects, but the sections seems to imply attention
> to strings in "4.7 Formatting Strings".
> 
> I think this is quite valid:
> 
>   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)
> 
> But perhaps not completely true.

It is incomplete: the format specifier %s takes a generic
Lisp object, as does the %S. The difference is that %S puts
strings in quotes, and %s doesn't. With %s, the above example
yields

  => look here: (7 (a b c) Wed Dec  2 14:46:19 2020 70)

Roughly speaking: use %S if your target audience is a
computer program (or a human doing debugging, which
amounts to much the same), and %s if your target audience
is a human :)

Now I'm again paraphrasing (badly) the manual for you.
I'm doing something wrong I guess.

Cheers
 - t

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 2:52 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 02:15:20PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 1:37 PM
> > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 01:05:07PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> > > > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > > > > > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or equivalent
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > , no?
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> > > > > manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).
> > > >
> > > > How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?
> > >
> > > Care to pose a more complete example?
> > >
> > > As far as I understood you, you'd put a Lisp expression in the 2nd...nth
> > > arguments of (message fmt ...), but I might be misunderstanding you
> > > completely.
> >
> > As I read it, the format it is mainly for numerical and strings.
> >
> >   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)
> >
> > Although it mentions printed representation of the object
> >
> > I am sure users would be more interested is printing results
> > of expressions.
>
> But the result of an expression /is/ a Lisp object. That's
> the whole point of Lisp!

Correct.  Must have got brain damage by working too much with C.

> So you can do:
>
>   (format "look here: %S" (list (+ 3 4) (list 'a 'b 'c) (current-time-string) (current-fill-column)))
>
>   => "look here: (7 (a b c) \"Wed Dec  2 14:42:30 2020\" 70)"

Did not know one may use a single format specifier for multiple objects.

> > But I suppose one should use "print", "prin1", and "princ"
> > for that.
>
> Use whatever is convenient, yes.
>
> > However, a valid format specification for conditional could be.
> >
> > (message "Result: %s" (> 5 3))
>
> Yes, that works. Have you actually tried it? What is the result?
> Does that match your expectations? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Yes, matches expectations.

> > %s mentions objects, but the sections seems to imply attention
> > to strings in "4.7 Formatting Strings".
> >
> > I think this is quite valid:
> >
> >   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)
> >
> > But perhaps not completely true.
>
> It is incomplete: the format specifier %s takes a generic
> Lisp object, as does the %S. The difference is that %S puts
> strings in quotes, and %s doesn't. With %s, the above example
> yields
>
>   => look here: (7 (a b c) Wed Dec  2 14:46:19 2020 70)
>
> Roughly speaking: use %S if your target audience is a
> computer program (or a human doing debugging, which
> amounts to much the same), and %s if your target audience
> is a human :)
>
> Now I'm again paraphrasing (badly) the manual for you.
> I'm doing something wrong I guess.

The manual explains it.  Wrong?  Must have been from the goodness
of your heart.  Yes, I understood about %S.

> Cheers
>  - t
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Robert Pluim]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

>> So you can do:
>>
>>   (format "look here: %S" (list (+ 3 4) (list 'a 'b 'c) (current-time-string) (current-fill-column)))
>>
>>   => "look here: (7 (a b c) \"Wed Dec  2 14:42:30 2020\" 70)"
>
> Did not know one may use a single format specifier for multiple objects.

Itʼs a single object: a list containing a number, a list, a string and
another number.

Robert

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

I want to use (display-time), but is it possible to remove
[(Lisp Interaction AC MS ElDoc)] from the mode line?  Because
my screen is not very wide.

Many Thanks.


> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:58 PM
> From: pietru@caramail.com
> To: tomas@tuxteam.de
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:53 PM
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:23:31PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> > > * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > > > (defun message-any (any)
> > > > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > > > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> > > >
> > > > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > > > The message would then give me some more clarity.
> > >
> > > (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))
> >
> > Or, if the heading is a constant, just
> >
> >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
>
> Super
>
> > Cheers
> >  - t
> >
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 3:20 PM
> From: "Robert Pluim" <rpluim@gmail.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> >> So you can do:
> >>
> >>   (format "look here: %S" (list (+ 3 4) (list 'a 'b 'c) (current-time-string) (current-fill-column)))
> >>
> >>   => "look here: (7 (a b c) \"Wed Dec  2 14:42:30 2020\" 70)"
> >
> > Did not know one may use a single format specifier for multiple objects.
> 
> Itʼs a single object: a list containing a number, a list, a string and
> another number.

Quite convenient.  Have to make a note of this.
 
> Robert
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* tomas@tuxteam.de <tomas@tuxteam.de> [2020-12-02 13:09]:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > 
> > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > 
> > Or equivalent
> > 
> >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > 
> > , no?
> 
> Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).

I made simple replacement `message-any' to forget about formatting.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2020-12-02 16:17]:
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 1:37 PM
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 01:05:07PM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 9:41 AM
> > > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:44:09PM +0100, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> > > > > <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> > > > >
> > > > > Or equivalent
> > > > >
> > > > >     (message "my heading: %S" any)
> > > > >
> > > > > , no?
> > > >
> > > > Indeed. Recommended reading "4.7 Formatting Strings" in the Emacs Lisp
> > > > manual (in the Intertubes here [1]).
> > >
> > > How does one deal with conditionals (1, nil) in format?
> >
> > Care to pose a more complete example?
> >
> > As far as I understood you, you'd put a Lisp expression in the 2nd...nth
> > arguments of (message fmt ...), but I might be misunderstanding you
> > completely.
> 
> As I read it, the format it is mainly for numerical and strings.
> 
>   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)

I was forgetting that (message) is formatting itself and wanted to
forget about it when debugging.

Often I wish to show value of a function in buffer, so I used
`message-any', it appeared easier, but need not be. If I forget "%s"
then it would not work. 

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

And if I also have notification enabled, the problem gets even
worse.  Looks like one has to also do the same for every major
mode.  Seems to be a complicated thing to do.  I could simply
have an emacs session used only for appointment notification.

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:00 PM
> From: pietru@caramail.com
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> I want to use (display-time), but is it possible to remove
> [(Lisp Interaction AC MS ElDoc)] from the mode line?  Because
> my screen is not very wide.
>
> Many Thanks.
>
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:58 PM
> > From: pietru@caramail.com
> > To: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2020 at 8:53 PM
> > > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 10:23:31PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> > > > * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-01 22:14]:
> > > > > > (defun message-any (any)
> > > > > >   "Message anything to minibuffer"
> > > > > >   (message "%s" (prin1-to-string any)))
> > > > >
> > > > > How can one add a heading string before calling prin1-to-string.
> > > > > The message would then give me some more clarity.
> > > >
> > > > (message "%s: %s" heading (prin1-to-string any))
> > >
> > > Or, if the heading is a constant, just
> > >
> > >   (message "my heading: %s" (prin1-to-string any))
> >
> > Super
> >
> > > Cheers
> > >  - t
> > >
> >
> >
>

RE: Toggle appointment notification

[Drew Adams]

> As I read it, the format it is mainly for numerical and strings.
>   (format "%s" arbitrary-string)
> Although it mentions printed representation of the object
> I am sure users would be more interested is printing results
> of expressions.

`C-h f format'

It takes a formatting string and zero or more Lisp values.

The number of %-sequences in the formatting string correspond to the number of Lisp values.  Each Lisp value is handled, in turn, by one of the %-sequences.

`message' act similarly.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> And if I also have notification enabled, the problem gets even
> worse.  Looks like one has to also do the same for every major
> mode.  Seems to be a complicated thing to do.  I could simply
> have an emacs session used only for appointment notification.

There are different solutions to make the mode-line less wordy.  But you
could also just move the notification to a more prominent (or further
ahead) place in the mode-line.  Which way would you prefer?

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:47 PM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > And if I also have notification enabled, the problem gets even
> > worse.  Looks like one has to also do the same for every major
> > mode.  Seems to be a complicated thing to do.  I could simply
> > have an emacs session used only for appointment notification.
>
> There are different solutions to make the mode-line less wordy.  But you
> could also just move the notification to a more prominent (or further
> ahead) place in the mode-line.  Which way would you prefer?

I think I better try them out to see.   But moving the notification to a
more prominent (or further ahead) place in the mode-line is interesting.

Don't want to take too much of your time though.

> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

Have done as below, but the appt notification and the date/time
get too close together (touching with no spacing).

(defun diary-style ()
  (interactive)

  (make-local-variable 'mode-line-position)
  (make-local-variable 'line-number-mode)
  (make-local-variable 'column-number-mode)
  (make-local-variable 'mode-line-modes)

  ;; (make-local-variable 'display-time)
  (make-local-variable 'display-time-day-and-date)

  (display-time)
  (setq display-time-day-and-date t)
  (setq mode-line-position nil)
  (setq line-number-mode nil)
  (setq column-number-mode nil)
  (setq mode-line-modes nil)
)




> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:58 PM
> From: pietru@caramail.com
> To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:47 PM
> > From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > pietru@caramail.com writes:
> >
> > > And if I also have notification enabled, the problem gets even
> > > worse.  Looks like one has to also do the same for every major
> > > mode.  Seems to be a complicated thing to do.  I could simply
> > > have an emacs session used only for appointment notification.
> >
> > There are different solutions to make the mode-line less wordy.  But you
> > could also just move the notification to a more prominent (or further
> > ahead) place in the mode-line.  Which way would you prefer?
>
> I think I better try them out to see.   But moving the notification to a
> more prominent (or further ahead) place in the mode-line is interesting.
>
> Don't want to take too much of your time though.
>
> > Michael.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

I wonder if there exists something that removes the load information that
appears next to the time.


> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 6:39 PM
> From: pietru@caramail.com
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
>
> Have done as below, but the appt notification and the date/time
> get too close together (touching with no spacing).
>
> (defun diary-style ()
>   (interactive)
>
>   (make-local-variable 'mode-line-position)
>   (make-local-variable 'line-number-mode)
>   (make-local-variable 'column-number-mode)
>   (make-local-variable 'mode-line-modes)
>
>   ;; (make-local-variable 'display-time)
>   (make-local-variable 'display-time-day-and-date)
>
>   (display-time)
>   (setq display-time-day-and-date t)
>   (setq mode-line-position nil)
>   (setq line-number-mode nil)
>   (setq column-number-mode nil)
>   (setq mode-line-modes nil)
> )
>
>
>
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:58 PM
> > From: pietru@caramail.com
> > To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 at 4:47 PM
> > > From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > >
> > > pietru@caramail.com writes:
> > >
> > > > And if I also have notification enabled, the problem gets even
> > > > worse.  Looks like one has to also do the same for every major
> > > > mode.  Seems to be a complicated thing to do.  I could simply
> > > > have an emacs session used only for appointment notification.
> > >
> > > There are different solutions to make the mode-line less wordy.  But you
> > > could also just move the notification to a more prominent (or further
> > > ahead) place in the mode-line.  Which way would you prefer?
> >
> > I think I better try them out to see.   But moving the notification to a
> > more prominent (or further ahead) place in the mode-line is interesting.
> >
> > Don't want to take too much of your time though.
> >
> > > Michael.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 480 bytes --]

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 06:08:24PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:

[...]

> I was forgetting that (message) is formatting itself and wanted to
> forget about it when debugging.
> 
> Often I wish to show value of a function in buffer, so I used
> `message-any', it appeared easier, but need not be. If I forget "%s"
> then it would not work. 

Strange. I don't have `message-any'.

When I want to have in the current buffer, I do

  (insert (format ...))

Cheers
 - t

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* tomas@tuxteam.de <tomas@tuxteam.de> [2020-12-03 00:14]:
> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 06:08:24PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > I was forgetting that (message) is formatting itself and wanted to
> > forget about it when debugging.
> > 
> > Often I wish to show value of a function in buffer, so I used
> > `message-any', it appeared easier, but need not be. If I forget "%s"
> > then it would not work. 
> 
> Strange. I don't have `message-any'.
> 
> When I want to have in the current buffer, I do
> 
>   (insert (format ...))


In current buffer evaluation is easy with:

{M-x lisp-interaction-mode}

as then with C-j you get result in the next line:

(+ 2 2)
4

Otherwise in any buffer one could bind eval-print-last-sexp to a key
to get same effect, then undo to delete it.

I am often inserting things like pricing by replacing the current
expression:

(defun replace-last-sexp ()
  "Eval last sexp and replaces it in the buffer with its result."
  (interactive)
  (let ((result (eval (elisp--preceding-sexp))))
    (kill-sexp -1)
    (insert (format "%s" result))))

Then when writing emails I write sometimes expression that replaces
itself even with complicated sentences something like this:

With 3 machines and 10 hours of work per day and grade of 0.70 we
can make 1260.00 units, equivalent to US $64863.38 per month.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> (+ 2 2)
> 4
>
> Otherwise in any buffer one could bind eval-print-last-sexp to
> a key to get same effect, then undo to delete it.

Not sure I follow 100 as usual, _but_ if you want/need to delete
after insert, instead just do C-x C-e for `eval-last-sexp' and
for (+ 2 2) this

  4 (#o4, #x4, ?\C-d)

becomes visible in the echo area.

That way the buffer remains unmodified as well.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2020-12-03 01:37]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > (+ 2 2)
> > 4
> >
> > Otherwise in any buffer one could bind eval-print-last-sexp to
> > a key to get same effect, then undo to delete it.
> 
> Not sure I follow 100 as usual, _but_ if you want/need to delete
> after insert, instead just do C-x C-e for `eval-last-sexp' and
> for (+ 2 2) this
> 
>   4 (#o4, #x4, ?\C-d)
> 
> becomes visible in the echo area.
> 
> That way the buffer remains unmodified as well.

Sure. There are many cases where evaluation in buffer helps to insert
text into buffer. I am writing consulting related emails since
decades. Sometimes real time information has to be fetched,
recalculated and English or other language sentences constructed in
the buffer and expressions may not be repetitive or already defined as
functions. That is where inserting into buffer helps.

It also helps when analyzing as visibility in the buffer is better
then short message display in the minibuffer.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> I wonder if there exists something that removes the load information
> that appears next to the time.

You are speaking about `display-time'.  At least this one is easily
doable out of the box: see `display-time-string-forms'.

Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> But moving the notification to a more prominent (or further ahead)
> place in the mode-line is interesting.

Unfortunately it's not as easy as I had hoped.  Instead of calling
`display-time-mode' you would have to duplicate most of its
implementation code and modify the part where the `display-time-string'
is added to the mode-line.

Actually, once the mode runs, such stuff is not tested any more, so you
also can first start the mode normally as is and after that remove the
added `display-time-string' element from the mode-line and re-add to
some other mode-line place.

May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
it.


Regards,

Michael

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 2:50 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > But moving the notification to a more prominent (or further ahead)
> > place in the mode-line is interesting.
>
> Unfortunately it's not as easy as I had hoped.  Instead of calling
> `display-time-mode' you would have to duplicate most of its
> implementation code and modify the part where the `display-time-string'
> is added to the mode-line.
>
> Actually, once the mode runs, such stuff is not tested any more, so you
> also can first start the mode normally as is and after that remove the
> added `display-time-string' element from the mode-line and re-add to
> some other mode-line place.

Correct, that's the best plan.  Playing with mode line in coordination with
agenda, calendar, and diary is difficult.  You got to re-code almost
everything if you are very picky.

> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
> appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
> things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
> it.

Will it be part of official emacs?

> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 2:50 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > But moving the notification to a more prominent (or further ahead)
> > place in the mode-line is interesting.
>
> Unfortunately it's not as easy as I had hoped.  Instead of calling
> `display-time-mode' you would have to duplicate most of its
> implementation code and modify the part where the `display-time-string'
> is added to the mode-line.
>
> Actually, once the mode runs, such stuff is not tested any more, so you
> also can first start the mode normally as is and after that remove the
> added `display-time-string' element from the mode-line and re-add to
> some other mode-line place.
>
> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
> appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
> things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
> it.

I am interested in appointments too. :)

> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 2:39 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > I wonder if there exists something that removes the load information
> > that appears next to the time.
>
> You are speaking about `display-time'.  At least this one is easily
> doable out of the box: see `display-time-string-forms'.

I found display-time-default-load-average

> Regards,
>
> Michael.
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Pankaj Jangid]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
> appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
> things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
> it.

Jumping into the discussion because I am also interested in the Diary
enhancements. I use Diary, but most of my use-cases require integrations
with other things.

My diary file is almost empty and it has just this entry:

#include "google-diary"

My work account is on Google Workspace so I use a python script[1] to
synchronise `~/.config/emacs/google-diary' with my work calendar. And
then `(setq org-agenda-include-diary t)'. This shows one month of data
from my work calendar in the org-agenda. This also appears in emacs
calendar as well.

Second integration is with `ebdb'. I rarely using external packages and
this is one of them. I you have saved anniversaries in ebdb. They will
appear in the calendar (and org-agenda) via diary.

So I am interested in two enhancements:

1. CalDav support so that I don't have to depend on external scripts.

2. Inclusion of `ebdb' into core emacs.

Footnotes:
[1]  https://github.com/jangid/gcal_to_emacs_diary. This script will
     require some setup on https://cloud.google.com. i.e. create a
     project, get the client credentials and enable calendar API access
     for the project. Put credentials.json beside the python script.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> Correct, that's the best plan. Playing with mode line in
> coordination with agenda, calendar, and diary is difficult.
> You got to re-code almost everything if you are very picky.

Gnus has a variable to format the mode line, it is
`gnus-group-mode-line-format'. If more major modes had that, the
main variable `mode-line-format' wouldn't get so ugly...

But it is only ugly when looking at the code. Then it works
great. The code itself isn't particularly tricky, either, it is
just ugly with all the branching and references to all the
different modes...

>> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary
>> and appointments? I ask because I am developing enhancements
>> for these things and am curious how much other people's usage
>> would profit from it.
>
> Will it be part of official emacs?

It will be part of diary and appointments. I'm not a user of
either but it seems diary is built-in, so yes, any improvements
to that will be part of core Emacs. appointments I cannot find
in either core Emacs or by searching the [M]ELPAs, but whatever
it is and wherever you found it, rest assured, that's were the
improvements will go :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 4:23 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru wrote:
>
> > Correct, that's the best plan. Playing with mode line in
> > coordination with agenda, calendar, and diary is difficult.
> > You got to re-code almost everything if you are very picky.
>
> Gnus has a variable to format the mode line, it is
> `gnus-group-mode-line-format'. If more major modes had that, the
> main variable `mode-line-format' wouldn't get so ugly...
>
> But it is only ugly when looking at the code. Then it works
> great. The code itself isn't particularly tricky, either, it is
> just ugly with all the branching and references to all the
> different modes...
>
> >> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary
> >> and appointments? I ask because I am developing enhancements
> >> for these things and am curious how much other people's usage
> >> would profit from it.
> >
> > Will it be part of official emacs?
>
> It will be part of diary and appointments. I'm not a user of
> either but it seems diary is built-in, so yes, any improvements
> to that will be part of core Emacs. appointments I cannot find
> in either core Emacs or by searching the [M]ELPAs, but whatever
> it is and wherever you found it, rest assured, that's were the
> improvements will go :)

We would be glad to help if we can report it is Official Gnu Software.
Work is focused on Field Archaeology through surveys and excavations.

Because, the work is outdoors, we have to coordinate set times for
field meetings, schedule locations and operational times for excavations,
transfer of finds, and so on.  Things move on quite rapidly.  Some of us
use small laptops so the capability to have compact window format would
be of great benefit.

Pietru Caxaro
Appia Antica Project
Rome. Italy.

> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> We would be glad to help if we can report it is Official Gnu
> Software. Work is focused on Field Archaeology through surveys
> and excavations.
>
> Because, the work is outdoors, we have to coordinate set times
> for field meetings, schedule locations and operational times
> for excavations, transfer of finds, and so on. Things move on
> quite rapidly. Some of us use small laptops so the capability
> to have compact window format would be of great benefit.

Sounds like a heck of a project! :O

I'm building a tree house [1] to defend forest from excavation.
Admittedly, I haven't been able to integrate Emacs into the
workflow...

Before that, I run a bicycle repair shop [2]. Then, compiled
a huge list of ever tire size I came across [3]. I also did some
computations [4] which I guess increased my theoretical
understanding of the bike, but as for the actual activity, Emacs
yet again failed to play a large part :)


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/tree-house/front.jpg
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/tree-house/corner.jpg
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/tree-house/new-deck.jpg

[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/stand.jpg
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/truer.jpg

[3] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/bike/TIRE

[4] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#bike

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

How would you like to proceed, Michael?

Regards
Pietru


> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 2:50 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > But moving the notification to a more prominent (or further ahead)
> > place in the mode-line is interesting.
>
> Unfortunately it's not as easy as I had hoped.  Instead of calling
> `display-time-mode' you would have to duplicate most of its
> implementation code and modify the part where the `display-time-string'
> is added to the mode-line.
>
> Actually, once the mode runs, such stuff is not tested any more, so you
> also can first start the mode normally as is and after that remove the
> added `display-time-string' element from the mode-line and re-add to
> some other mode-line place.
>
> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
> appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
> things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
> it.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-02 18:02]:
> I want to use (display-time), but is it possible to remove
> [(Lisp Interaction AC MS ElDoc)] from the mode line?  Because
> my screen is not very wide.

{M-x customize-group RET mode-line RET}

Hide Mode Line Format: 
("%e" mode-line-front-space mode-line-mule-info mode-line-client mode-line-modified mode-line-remote mode-line-frame-identification mode-line-buffer-identification "   " mode-line-position
 (vc-mode vc-mode)
 "  " mode-line-modes mode-line-misc-info mode-line-end-spaces)
    State : STANDARD.

Then you may customize it from there.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

There are quite some things for elaboration.  Could we start with some
areas that concern the agenda.  I might not know all aspects, and there
will be things that might already have a solution.  In other instances
there could some capability that could be tedious and some simplification
could help us a lot.  What would be your position on this?

Could start with org agenda because people currently use it more and has more
elaborate display.  Would it suit you?  Here we are quite comfortable as work
goes, but other teams frequently work at tough sites, making ease of use paramount.

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 2:50 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > But moving the notification to a more prominent (or further ahead)
> > place in the mode-line is interesting.
>
> Unfortunately it's not as easy as I had hoped.  Instead of calling
> `display-time-mode' you would have to duplicate most of its
> implementation code and modify the part where the `display-time-string'
> is added to the mode-line.
>
> Actually, once the mode runs, such stuff is not tested any more, so you
> also can first start the mode normally as is and after that remove the
> added `display-time-string' element from the mode-line and re-add to
> some other mode-line place.
>
> May I ask for what kind of stuff you are going to use diary and
> appointments?  I ask because I am developing enhancements for these
> things and am curious how much other people's usage would profit from
> it.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 18:21]:
> There are quite some things for elaboration.  Could we start with
> some areas that concern the agenda.  I might not know all aspects,
> and there will be things that might already have a solution.  In
> other instances there could some capability that could be tedious
> and some simplification could help us a lot.  What would be your
> position on this?

I see it this way: if anybody is using org-agenda that means that
methodology of planning was wrong in th first place. Before 25-30
years I was simply using notebooks, papers and text files in
computer and I still have such and I can see nothing changed in my
planning until today. Maybe I learned from different foundation.

My planning always have objectives or purposes or goals.

1. Objective
   - task
   - task
   - task

All tasks have purpose to achieve its senior objective. If senior
objective or purpose have been achieved those subordinate tasks become
redundant.

If there is objective THAT IS action to be solved. There is no need to
write everywhere TODO and then search through plethora of files for
variety of tasks in the same time. Sorry it makes no sense to me.

When person goes to work that person is usually organized or somebody
organized the person's work so it is usually quite clear what is to be
done, because work is organized in chronological and logical
order. What is to be done is already known. Only by lack of
organization one has to use software program like org agenda to see
what is to be done. If organizational methodology is good in the first
place person will know before the day what is next.

> Could start with org agenda because people currently use it more and
> has more elaborate display.  Would it suit you?  Here we are quite
> comfortable as work goes, but other teams frequently work at tough
> sites, making ease of use paramount.

System that person focuses on objective and does few things at a time
related to objective is more useful.

That means thinking from top to bottom. Not from bottom to top. Org
mode is already set by methodology and by people insisting on it to
drive other people into complex situations. I do believe it solves
problems but it solves problems to organize the procrastination. If
there is no procrastination then no org-agenda need to search through
computer files to find out what is next to be done. People have been
handling problems of life organizing before computers and before Org
agenda. Its fundamental design is so much fine and nice, but when it
comes to organizing things that is sadly one of last tools, there are
many good software tools for organizing life, and many CRM programs
are way better in doing so.

What is meant with bottom-to-top thinking is when users write
unrelated notes in vicinity of unrelated tasks inside of unrelated
files and file names in vicinity of unrelated directories. That
results with mess and further development of Org software with attempt
to handle such mess. Then maybe in future they get some kind of idea
what is objective for it.

Thinking from top-to-bottom would mean to think of objectives. Of
objective or purpose or goal is reached, subordinate information
becomes redundant. When objectives are faced every day there is no
need to mark tasks as TODO and consider the senior objective DONE only
when subordinate tasks are marked as DONE. It is the other way
around. When senior purpose have been achieved, all subordinate tasks
become not important. I wish people would like more into real life
situation and design software by how real life works.

Software cannot teach people methodology of planning but it can easily
drive them into unknown directions so much worse of those well
established planning methodologies. And that is what Org mode
does. The more users use it the more they get hooked on it and many
will procrastinate while enjoying the illusion they are getting
organized.

Org agenda is summary of mess. It is not summary of organized
structure. If one needs to use org agenda to find out what is next, or
which meetings are to be done, or whatever like that, it means that
organization from top to bottom is not there and person is much
confused in life. I agree this may help many people.

In last 5 years of using Org I have not almost ever used Org agenda
for my planning. I have just tested its function, never required its
use.

My files are organized by subjects which are ordered by subordinate
purposes for which sake subordinate tasks are being executed. Because
of this simple methodology from top to bottom there is no need to
"search" within agenda, or to ask computer to give agenda list. It is
already there in its place in the file, in front of my face. Org mode
could sort things way better in general but is not yet so.

No wonder people devise their own systems and than train others like
SMOS.

SMOS - A Comprehensive Self-Management System
https://smos.cs-syd.eu/features

Much better systems for handling tasks are almost any CRM systems. As
every task is related to people, if not other people than oneself. But
we do tasks related to other people, and often supervise tasks that
other people have to do as assigned by ourselves. While this basic
premise is present in all CRM software systems I have encountered it
is not in Org mode.

1. Create some action, describe what is to be done.

2. Relate to contact and relate to group or organization.

3. Assign to one person or group of people together.

4. Click to share.

Computer should do the necessary repetitive tasks. One should be able
to get list of all tasks assigned to other people or related to
specific contacts or specific organizations.

Both the contacts database and organizations database do not exist in
Org mode as foundation for organizing. That is out of my world where I
deal with people and groups of people. When I think of actions I think
normally first of people or organizations and then what has to be done
for them.

Users who wish to organize life may spare their efforts by using
software well designed for that. There are many choices:

https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted#project-management

Monica - Personal Relationship Manager
https://github.com/monicahq/monica

Jean

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

Please stop ranting forever whilst telling us how to approach our work.
We know more than anyone how to conduct our field studies.

Regards
Pietru

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 6:09 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 18:21]:
> > There are quite some things for elaboration.  Could we start with
> > some areas that concern the agenda.  I might not know all aspects,
> > and there will be things that might already have a solution.  In
> > other instances there could some capability that could be tedious
> > and some simplification could help us a lot.  What would be your
> > position on this?
>
> I see it this way: if anybody is using org-agenda that means that
> methodology of planning was wrong in th first place. Before 25-30
> years I was simply using notebooks, papers and text files in
> computer and I still have such and I can see nothing changed in my
> planning until today. Maybe I learned from different foundation.
>
> My planning always have objectives or purposes or goals.
>
> 1. Objective
>    - task
>    - task
>    - task
>
> All tasks have purpose to achieve its senior objective. If senior
> objective or purpose have been achieved those subordinate tasks become
> redundant.
>
> If there is objective THAT IS action to be solved. There is no need to
> write everywhere TODO and then search through plethora of files for
> variety of tasks in the same time. Sorry it makes no sense to me.
>
> When person goes to work that person is usually organized or somebody
> organized the person's work so it is usually quite clear what is to be
> done, because work is organized in chronological and logical
> order. What is to be done is already known. Only by lack of
> organization one has to use software program like org agenda to see
> what is to be done. If organizational methodology is good in the first
> place person will know before the day what is next.
>
> > Could start with org agenda because people currently use it more and
> > has more elaborate display.  Would it suit you?  Here we are quite
> > comfortable as work goes, but other teams frequently work at tough
> > sites, making ease of use paramount.
>
> System that person focuses on objective and does few things at a time
> related to objective is more useful.
>
> That means thinking from top to bottom. Not from bottom to top. Org
> mode is already set by methodology and by people insisting on it to
> drive other people into complex situations. I do believe it solves
> problems but it solves problems to organize the procrastination. If
> there is no procrastination then no org-agenda need to search through
> computer files to find out what is next to be done. People have been
> handling problems of life organizing before computers and before Org
> agenda. Its fundamental design is so much fine and nice, but when it
> comes to organizing things that is sadly one of last tools, there are
> many good software tools for organizing life, and many CRM programs
> are way better in doing so.
>
> What is meant with bottom-to-top thinking is when users write
> unrelated notes in vicinity of unrelated tasks inside of unrelated
> files and file names in vicinity of unrelated directories. That
> results with mess and further development of Org software with attempt
> to handle such mess. Then maybe in future they get some kind of idea
> what is objective for it.
>
> Thinking from top-to-bottom would mean to think of objectives. Of
> objective or purpose or goal is reached, subordinate information
> becomes redundant. When objectives are faced every day there is no
> need to mark tasks as TODO and consider the senior objective DONE only
> when subordinate tasks are marked as DONE. It is the other way
> around. When senior purpose have been achieved, all subordinate tasks
> become not important. I wish people would like more into real life
> situation and design software by how real life works.
>
> Software cannot teach people methodology of planning but it can easily
> drive them into unknown directions so much worse of those well
> established planning methodologies. And that is what Org mode
> does. The more users use it the more they get hooked on it and many
> will procrastinate while enjoying the illusion they are getting
> organized.
>
> Org agenda is summary of mess. It is not summary of organized
> structure. If one needs to use org agenda to find out what is next, or
> which meetings are to be done, or whatever like that, it means that
> organization from top to bottom is not there and person is much
> confused in life. I agree this may help many people.
>
> In last 5 years of using Org I have not almost ever used Org agenda
> for my planning. I have just tested its function, never required its
> use.
>
> My files are organized by subjects which are ordered by subordinate
> purposes for which sake subordinate tasks are being executed. Because
> of this simple methodology from top to bottom there is no need to
> "search" within agenda, or to ask computer to give agenda list. It is
> already there in its place in the file, in front of my face. Org mode
> could sort things way better in general but is not yet so.
>
> No wonder people devise their own systems and than train others like
> SMOS.
>
> SMOS - A Comprehensive Self-Management System
> https://smos.cs-syd.eu/features
>
> Much better systems for handling tasks are almost any CRM systems. As
> every task is related to people, if not other people than oneself. But
> we do tasks related to other people, and often supervise tasks that
> other people have to do as assigned by ourselves. While this basic
> premise is present in all CRM software systems I have encountered it
> is not in Org mode.
>
> 1. Create some action, describe what is to be done.
>
> 2. Relate to contact and relate to group or organization.
>
> 3. Assign to one person or group of people together.
>
> 4. Click to share.
>
> Computer should do the necessary repetitive tasks. One should be able
> to get list of all tasks assigned to other people or related to
> specific contacts or specific organizations.
>
> Both the contacts database and organizations database do not exist in
> Org mode as foundation for organizing. That is out of my world where I
> deal with people and groups of people. When I think of actions I think
> normally first of people or organizations and then what has to be done
> for them.
>
> Users who wish to organize life may spare their efforts by using
> software well designed for that. There are many choices:
>
> https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted#project-management
>
> Monica - Personal Relationship Manager
> https://github.com/monicahq/monica
>
> Jean
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 20:20]:
> Please stop ranting forever whilst telling us how to approach our work.
> We know more than anyone how to conduct our field studies.

Sorry, I understand the resentment. No I did not mean it to become
that way and there is nothing personal related to you.

The references offered can give users more insights into design of
project planning or planning methodologies. Looking how others are
doing is often helpful to design user interfaces and minimize
repetitive tasks.

No, I am not interested to coerce somebody into how to do their work.

I am interested to show how other systems are organizing things and
that one may look on those external principles when developing
anything for and within Emacs.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

Dear Jean,

Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be addressed to
us rather than to every emacs user.   I understand we asked for points of view,
but that was after Michael informed us that he was planning some work on diary
appointments and he asked me for suggestions on our planned use and strategy.
Emanuel confirmed that changes will became part of the official release.
So we will help.

Stating that anybody using org-agenda has their methodology of planning wrong
is preposterous.  We don't take lightly allegations of this nature!

Sincerely
Pietru Caxaro

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 6:58 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 20:20]:
> > Please stop ranting forever whilst telling us how to approach our work.
> > We know more than anyone how to conduct our field studies.
>
> Sorry, I understand the resentment. No I did not mean it to become
> that way and there is nothing personal related to you.
>
> The references offered can give users more insights into design of
> project planning or planning methodologies. Looking how others are
> doing is often helpful to design user interfaces and minimize
> repetitive tasks.
>
> No, I am not interested to coerce somebody into how to do their work.
>
> I am interested to show how other systems are organizing things and
> that one may look on those external principles when developing
> anything for and within Emacs.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 21:30]:
> Stating that anybody using org-agenda has their methodology of
> planning wrong is preposterous.  We don't take lightly allegations
> of this nature!

Methods are decided individually.

There is no method explained but "do it as you wish" with Org
mode. Then users can share between themselves and still we find many
Org users overwhelmed and others trying to cope with new complexities
and developers trying to help with it.

Jean

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

Software features may influence those human methods that people
implement themselves to better or worse.

Many good useful features can be developed by looking how "others" are
doing. By thinking in advance "how is this feature to impact future
thousands if not hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of
users". 

It is true that I sound general here, that is because I am sorry for
many users who encounter Org mode but end up in the jungle of
procrastination. Emacs Lisp is powerful language and may be used to
integrate it better for users and help in improving collaboration
between people and groups.

I have given many specifics on the other mailing list of Org. I feel
with users who spend their time in learning a tool to become
organized, while there are others who learn not longer than 5 minutes
and already know what is to be done.

This is because their software is logically and practically organized
with useful user interface.

Then I have got quite an impression from reading of Org list that
people are wasting their efforts. When goal is to organize project
execution, or to know what is the agenda then is fine to discuss about
that, with or without Org. Maybe Org can improve by looking how others
are doing. Maybe people can improve their organization by
understanding the ideal situation.

One specific that Org mode lacks is "people" as most important focus
there. It tries to be relational to people but it does not offer
structure of relation. No, org-contacts package cannot replace what I
am thinking about it.

Centralized Emacs based contact management is what Emacs need to have
as foundation. BBDB is not doing good job there. I know it maybe since
20 years. One other user lost people contacts on upgrade of BBDB and I
remember this happened to me with few contacts that I used it back
then.

I would like Emacs to have GDBM built in or other database. The
PostgreSQL dynamic module is coming to GNU ELPA, developers are
working on it and I am using it since its inception. Before I was
using pg module, which stopped working. 

I am using database backed people and contacts management through
Emacs and I am speedy and fast, and hope that we can make some
difference for the future by introducing at least concepts that people
may adopt and integrate into future tools.

It does not matter really how, but "people" as database is first
foundation that Emacs should have, very robust and possibly built
in. Then it is pretty easy to upgrade the foundation with "groups" or
"organizations" or "companies".

We have calendar but we have no people. Hmmm. While tools as such as
interesting as hacks or amusing programs, when making them, one cannot
expect there will be nobody to criticize it. Or that we should not
criticize it.

Unless I live alone on the deserted island using M-x calendar, any
calendar is not fine in computing environment if there are no related
people to it. We do planning with people.

When I say "foundation", I only refer to core design of the structure
of contacts and organizations and not to any integration. If the
structure and core design is well made it can last for future
decades. At least my structure is already for decades for me working
without changes.

That would be blazing quick access to contacts and organizations. It
would be easy to refer to contacts, something like:

(contact-first-name id)
(contact-middle-names id)
(contact-last-name id)
(contact-full-name id)
(contact-country-1 id)
(contact-country-2 id)
(contact-phone id)
(contact-cell id)
(contact-fax id)

When contacts are there, then the Org mode's demand for contact and
relations to contact would be fundamentally solved. Instead of
entering per file few settings, users could simply assign a heading to
specific contact. No writing, just semantic access. Something like
"Joe, Guayana" would inject the hyperlink into Org. Share to contact,
share to assigned contacts, share to groups, send task to group of
people, or single one, share by SMS, initiate a call, do the real
work and real collaboration.

Or maybe I am just alone here who is writing tasks for groups of
people and assigning them, maybe all other people are just writing for
themselves and like to invoke 50-100 key presses to inform the
assigned person of the assigned task. I like 2 key presses. I like
when I have 77 tasks that at one key press I can inform all of
them.

I will send here to this mailing list proposal on how people database
should look like, and then I hope we can discuss that and make one
good foundation for future of Emacs users. From my long year
experience I have also some features that I would maybe make little
bit different.

Then based on people and organizations we could build relations from
other software to make life easier.

Jean

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

I am not pleased with the roughshod approach by Gnu Support that gives Gnu a very bad
image.  Please do not address replies to me, but to the list.  Totally shameful and
unprofessional.

Pietru.

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 8:58 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Software features may influence those human methods that people
> implement themselves to better or worse.
>
> Many good useful features can be developed by looking how "others" are
> doing. By thinking in advance "how is this feature to impact future
> thousands if not hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of
> users".
>
> It is true that I sound general here, that is because I am sorry for
> many users who encounter Org mode but end up in the jungle of
> procrastination. Emacs Lisp is powerful language and may be used to
> integrate it better for users and help in improving collaboration
> between people and groups.
>
> I have given many specifics on the other mailing list of Org. I feel
> with users who spend their time in learning a tool to become
> organized, while there are others who learn not longer than 5 minutes
> and already know what is to be done.
>
> This is because their software is logically and practically organized
> with useful user interface.
>
> Then I have got quite an impression from reading of Org list that
> people are wasting their efforts. When goal is to organize project
> execution, or to know what is the agenda then is fine to discuss about
> that, with or without Org. Maybe Org can improve by looking how others
> are doing. Maybe people can improve their organization by
> understanding the ideal situation.
>
> One specific that Org mode lacks is "people" as most important focus
> there. It tries to be relational to people but it does not offer
> structure of relation. No, org-contacts package cannot replace what I
> am thinking about it.
>
> Centralized Emacs based contact management is what Emacs need to have
> as foundation. BBDB is not doing good job there. I know it maybe since
> 20 years. One other user lost people contacts on upgrade of BBDB and I
> remember this happened to me with few contacts that I used it back
> then.
>
> I would like Emacs to have GDBM built in or other database. The
> PostgreSQL dynamic module is coming to GNU ELPA, developers are
> working on it and I am using it since its inception. Before I was
> using pg module, which stopped working.
>
> I am using database backed people and contacts management through
> Emacs and I am speedy and fast, and hope that we can make some
> difference for the future by introducing at least concepts that people
> may adopt and integrate into future tools.
>
> It does not matter really how, but "people" as database is first
> foundation that Emacs should have, very robust and possibly built
> in. Then it is pretty easy to upgrade the foundation with "groups" or
> "organizations" or "companies".
>
> We have calendar but we have no people. Hmmm. While tools as such as
> interesting as hacks or amusing programs, when making them, one cannot
> expect there will be nobody to criticize it. Or that we should not
> criticize it.
>
> Unless I live alone on the deserted island using M-x calendar, any
> calendar is not fine in computing environment if there are no related
> people to it. We do planning with people.
>
> When I say "foundation", I only refer to core design of the structure
> of contacts and organizations and not to any integration. If the
> structure and core design is well made it can last for future
> decades. At least my structure is already for decades for me working
> without changes.
>
> That would be blazing quick access to contacts and organizations. It
> would be easy to refer to contacts, something like:
>
> (contact-first-name id)
> (contact-middle-names id)
> (contact-last-name id)
> (contact-full-name id)
> (contact-country-1 id)
> (contact-country-2 id)
> (contact-phone id)
> (contact-cell id)
> (contact-fax id)
>
> When contacts are there, then the Org mode's demand for contact and
> relations to contact would be fundamentally solved. Instead of
> entering per file few settings, users could simply assign a heading to
> specific contact. No writing, just semantic access. Something like
> "Joe, Guayana" would inject the hyperlink into Org. Share to contact,
> share to assigned contacts, share to groups, send task to group of
> people, or single one, share by SMS, initiate a call, do the real
> work and real collaboration.
>
> Or maybe I am just alone here who is writing tasks for groups of
> people and assigning them, maybe all other people are just writing for
> themselves and like to invoke 50-100 key presses to inform the
> assigned person of the assigned task. I like 2 key presses. I like
> when I have 77 tasks that at one key press I can inform all of
> them.
>
> I will send here to this mailing list proposal on how people database
> should look like, and then I hope we can discuss that and make one
> good foundation for future of Emacs users. From my long year
> experience I have also some features that I would maybe make little
> bit different.
>
> Then based on people and organizations we could build relations from
> other software to make life easier.
>
> Jean
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 23:24]:
> I am not pleased with the roughshod approach by Gnu Support that gives Gnu a very bad
> image.  Please do not address replies to me, but to the list.  Totally shameful and
> unprofessional.

My domain gnu.support is not GNU project related domain.

It is there because I wish to promote GNU operating system to computer
users.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 9:38 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 23:24]:
> > I am not pleased with the roughshod approach by Gnu Support that gives Gnu a very bad
> > image.  Please do not address replies to me, but to the list.  Totally shameful and
> > unprofessional.
>
> My domain gnu.support is not GNU project related domain.
>
> It is there because I wish to promote GNU operating system to computer
> users.

You should seriously consider locking yourself up in your little building
and staying away from people instead.

---------------------
Christopher Dimech
General Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation)
- Geophysical Simulation
- Geological Subsurface Mapping
- Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation
- Natural Resource Exploration and Production
- Free Software Advocacy

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> > You are speaking about `display-time'.  At least this one is easily
> > doable out of the box: see `display-time-string-forms'.
>
> I found display-time-default-load-average

Indeed, setting this to nil should do what you want.  Probably the best
solution.

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> appointments I cannot find in either core Emacs or by searching the
> [M]ELPAs [...]

They are part of the built-in Calendar and Diary.  The file's name is
"appt.el", located in "lisp/calendar", and they are described in the
user manual,

  (info "(emacs) Appointments")


Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Arthur Miller]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

>> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 9:38 PM
>> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
>> To: pietru@caramail.com
>> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>>
>> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 23:24]:
>> > I am not pleased with the roughshod approach by Gnu Support that gives Gnu a very bad
>> > image.  Please do not address replies to me, but to the list.  Totally shameful and
>> > unprofessional.
>>
>> My domain gnu.support is not GNU project related domain.
>>
>> It is there because I wish to promote GNU operating system to computer
>> users.
>
> You should seriously consider locking yourself up in your little building
> and staying away from people instead.
How do you know his building is little? Are you sure you are observing
naval objects and not people? Still having access to those NASA
sattelites? I am actually scared now.

I think this was unnecessary from your side. I opened this mail to see
something useful, and than I see something about buildings and personal
advices.

And for the record on more serous side: I think we should stay above
personal attacks on emacs-devel please.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 11:43 PM
> From: "Arthur Miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 at 9:38 PM
> >> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> >> To: pietru@caramail.com
> >> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >>
> >> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-03 23:24]:
> >> > I am not pleased with the roughshod approach by Gnu Support that gives Gnu a very bad
> >> > image.  Please do not address replies to me, but to the list.  Totally shameful and
> >> > unprofessional.
> >>
> >> My domain gnu.support is not GNU project related domain.
> >>
> >> It is there because I wish to promote GNU operating system to computer
> >> users.
> >
> > You should seriously consider locking yourself up in your little building
> > and staying away from people instead.
> How do you know his building is little? Are you sure you are observing
> naval objects and not people? Still having access to those NASA
> sattelites? I am actually scared now.
>
> I think this was unnecessary from your side. I opened this mail to see
> something useful, and than I see something about buildings and personal
> advices.
>
> And for the record on more serous side: I think we should stay above
> personal attacks on emacs-devel please.

I consider using bugs@gnu.support deceitful.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> changes will became part of the official release.

I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.

I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
want to have something better than appointments, and a better
integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.

I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
end up in something useful for others.

Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> > It is there because I wish to promote GNU operating system to
> > computer users.
>
> You should seriously consider locking yourself up in your little
> building and staying away from people instead.

I really wonder why people here get more and more angry and aggressive,
quite a few, and I don't understand it.  It's not good.


Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

* Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2020-12-04 02:05]:
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
> 
> > Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> > addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> > asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> > he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> > suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> > changes will became part of the official release.
> 
> I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
> diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
> Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.
> 
> I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
> 
> I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
> inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
> end up in something useful for others.

{M-x appt-add} While called `appointments' it may be used for any type
of daily alarm or notification. I find warnings or alarms useful. User
may write something and be focused and is then reminded of
appointment. Or bread being baken. Or child that has to be driven from
kindergarten.

(appt-add TIME MSG &optional WARNTIME)

  Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 23.3.

Add an appointment for today at TIME with message MSG.
The time should be in either 24 hour format or am/pm format.
Optional argument WARNTIME is an integer (or string) giving the number
of minutes before the appointment at which to start warning.
The default is ‘appt-message-warning-time’.


I am currently thinking same as you, how to streamline and shorten and
make faster actions of life and education of others.

If you have structured data to deal with it is good to use databases.

My planning of personal stuff is in this direction:

- reminders is database table that accepts general input, be it for
  appointments, tasks, any kind of reminder. It has to repeat itself
  at specific intervals and it has to have features to use SMS, email,
  and by sound spoken notifications. Cron job or Emacs command
  `run-with-idle-timer' can be used from time to time to run reminders
  job of sending notifications.

- I have a hyperdocument database table (hlinks) and hyperdocument
  types (hlinktypes), then I define the type of it. It can be
  anything. So it can be appointment. It can be task assigned to
  person, note, PDF, Org file, paragraph, or just WWW hyperlink,
  message ID, annotation. I recommend using that approach.

- then by using smart intersection location one can find anything one
  want. When having reminder, alert, warning, notifications, or
  binding it to one or two keys that is where it becomes interesting.

- DragonflyBSD operating system has nifty features for administrator
  that gets full report by local email about system
  securities.

- Analogous to such daily report it could be automated that user gets
  notifications, even that computer uploads symmetrically encrypted
  agenda on a website, into the mobile phone, send it by email, send
  reminders of tasks by email to people one work with, send them SMS

1. I recommend using database approach. It can be GDBM database. It
   can be PostgreSQL, MySQL, SQLite or something similar. Develop your
   first table and play with it. Then start storing information.

2. After a while of playing and exploring, develop table what you need
   and want.

It is not hard:
-- ------------------------------------------
-- ------------ Table appointments
-- ------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE appointments (
appointments_id SERIAL NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY,
appointments_datecreated TIMESTAMP DEFAULT CURRENT_TIMESTAMP NOT NULL,
appointments_datemodified TIMESTAMP,
appointments_usercreated TEXT NOT NULL DEFAULT current_user,
appointments_usermodified TEXT NOT NULL DEFAULT current_user,
appointments_timestamp TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE NOT NULL,
appointments_title TEXT NOT NULL,
appointments_description TEXT,
appointments_status TEXT
);

First make some functions to insert new appointmens:

(defun appointment-insert ()
  (let* ((current-date-time (format-time-string "%Y-%m-%d %H:%M"))
	 (time-date (read-from-minibuffer "Date and time: " current-date-time))
	 (title (read-from-minibuffer "Appointment: "))
	 (title (sql-escape-string title))
	 (description (read-from-minibuffer "Description: "))
	 (descrption (sql-escape-string description))
	 (sql (format "INSERT INTO appointments (appointments_timestamp, 
                                                 appointments_title,
                                                 appointments_description)
                       VALUES (%s,%s,%s)"
		      time-date title description)))
    (rcd-sql sql *db*)))
    
3. Then start making few functions until you get the feeling. List
   appointments chronologically and in reverse.

   When SQL query is:
   
   SELECT * FROM appointments ORDER BY appointments_timestamp;

Emacs Lisp function looks like:

(defun appointments-by-date ()
  "Returns list of appointments"
  (let ((sql "SELECT * FROM appointments ORDER BY appointments_timestamp;"))
    (rcd-sql-list sql *db*)))

Advantage of the databases is:

- that you may access appointments from almost any programming language

- that you may replicate database to other databases

- that it is multi-user system, for example group could be
  scheduling appointments and collaborating

- that you may access databases remotely, you may use mobile device

- high speed data access for large amounts of records quickly and efficiently

- databases lessen the coding requirement drastically, they have
  built in searches, sorting, intersections and plethora of
  functions, sparing user to write substantial amount of
  code. They are available in every GNU/Linux distribution and
  BSD derivatives and other operating systems.

- In general databases work well across various devices. It means
  their data can be exported, moved, transformed to other
  data. It is not just Emacs Lisp, it becomes universal data
  accessable also from Internet or browsers, command line, from X
  programs, and various types of software.

- databases are very reliable and easy to backup.

More reading:
https://www.postgresql.org/about/


Jean

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 12:03 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> > addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> > asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> > he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> > suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> > changes will became part of the official release.
>
> I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
> diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
> Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.

He said to me that changes will be Gnu Software.  I know Gnu Elpa
is a Package Archive, but not familiar with the details.

For official purposes, we would like to record what we use as part
of the Official Gnu Software.  Else, a lot of questions will be asked
and would have to answer to.

> I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.

I will have to see who is involved with what, but understand if you are
not an org developer.  Would this mean we concentrate on Diary and Calendar?
I think the work was done quite long ago, and interest in them stopped.

> I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
> inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
> end up in something useful for others.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 12:49 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> * Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2020-12-04 02:05]:
> > pietru@caramail.com writes:
> > 
> > > Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> > > addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> > > asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> > > he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> > > suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> > > changes will became part of the official release.
> > 
> > I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
> > diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
> > Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.
> > 
> > I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> > want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> > integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
> > 
> > I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
> > inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
> > end up in something useful for others.
> 
> {M-x appt-add} While called `appointments' it may be used for any type
> of daily alarm or notification. I find warnings or alarms useful. User
> may write something and be focused and is then reminded of
> appointment. Or bread being baken. Or child that has to be driven from
> kindergarten.
> 
> (appt-add TIME MSG &optional WARNTIME)
> 
>   Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 23.3.
> 
> Add an appointment for today at TIME with message MSG.
> The time should be in either 24 hour format or am/pm format.
> Optional argument WARNTIME is an integer (or string) giving the number
> of minutes before the appointment at which to start warning.
> The default is ‘appt-message-warning-time’.
> 
> 
> I am currently thinking same as you, how to streamline and shorten and
> make faster actions of life and education of others.
> 
> If you have structured data to deal with it is good to use databases.

Ok, it could be.  But bloody hell, you need to make an sql query.  And
of course SQLight works on binary files.  It is problematic.  It could be
made an option, but using text should be kept.  We often do not have
structured data.  At times we come up with things on the go, and don't
have people who would help if things get too technical when things
go wrong.  But with text you can hack things up on the spot and keep
working.  I could be working in a swamp, so not into the cosmetic
stuff.  Other people can use the fancy complex tree stuff.  There are
many instances where it would be an overkill.

Could you have a look at Gnu Recutils, so we can read and write using
rec-format.  Quite unsure how you are trying to do things, but sounds
like office work to me.  We have no need for people to organise things
for us, but for us to organise things as we wish.  Most times we find
that  databases are structured for very particular and typical purposes.
 
Regards
Pietru

> My planning of personal stuff is in this direction:
> 
> - reminders is database table that accepts general input, be it for
>   appointments, tasks, any kind of reminder. It has to repeat itself
>   at specific intervals and it has to have features to use SMS, email,
>   and by sound spoken notifications. Cron job or Emacs command
>   `run-with-idle-timer' can be used from time to time to run reminders
>   job of sending notifications.
> 
> - I have a hyperdocument database table (hlinks) and hyperdocument
>   types (hlinktypes), then I define the type of it. It can be
>   anything. So it can be appointment. It can be task assigned to
>   person, note, PDF, Org file, paragraph, or just WWW hyperlink,
>   message ID, annotation. I recommend using that approach.
> 
> - then by using smart intersection location one can find anything one
>   want. When having reminder, alert, warning, notifications, or
>   binding it to one or two keys that is where it becomes interesting.
> 
> - DragonflyBSD operating system has nifty features for administrator
>   that gets full report by local email about system
>   securities.
> 
> - Analogous to such daily report it could be automated that user gets
>   notifications, even that computer uploads symmetrically encrypted
>   agenda on a website, into the mobile phone, send it by email, send
>   reminders of tasks by email to people one work with, send them SMS
> 
> 1. I recommend using database approach. It can be GDBM database. It
>    can be PostgreSQL, MySQL, SQLite or something similar. Develop your
>    first table and play with it. Then start storing information.
> 
> 2. After a while of playing and exploring, develop table what you need
>    and want.
> 
> It is not hard:
> -- ------------------------------------------
> -- ------------ Table appointments
> -- ------------------------------------------
> CREATE TABLE appointments (
> appointments_id SERIAL NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY,
> appointments_datecreated TIMESTAMP DEFAULT CURRENT_TIMESTAMP NOT NULL,
> appointments_datemodified TIMESTAMP,
> appointments_usercreated TEXT NOT NULL DEFAULT current_user,
> appointments_usermodified TEXT NOT NULL DEFAULT current_user,
> appointments_timestamp TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE NOT NULL,
> appointments_title TEXT NOT NULL,
> appointments_description TEXT,
> appointments_status TEXT
> );
> 
> First make some functions to insert new appointmens:
> 
> (defun appointment-insert ()
>   (let* ((current-date-time (format-time-string "%Y-%m-%d %H:%M"))
> 	 (time-date (read-from-minibuffer "Date and time: " current-date-time))
> 	 (title (read-from-minibuffer "Appointment: "))
> 	 (title (sql-escape-string title))
> 	 (description (read-from-minibuffer "Description: "))
> 	 (descrption (sql-escape-string description))
> 	 (sql (format "INSERT INTO appointments (appointments_timestamp, 
>                                                  appointments_title,
>                                                  appointments_description)
>                        VALUES (%s,%s,%s)"
> 		      time-date title description)))
>     (rcd-sql sql *db*)))
>     
> 3. Then start making few functions until you get the feeling. List
>    appointments chronologically and in reverse.
> 
>    When SQL query is:
>    
>    SELECT * FROM appointments ORDER BY appointments_timestamp;
> 
> Emacs Lisp function looks like:
> 
> (defun appointments-by-date ()
>   "Returns list of appointments"
>   (let ((sql "SELECT * FROM appointments ORDER BY appointments_timestamp;"))
>     (rcd-sql-list sql *db*)))
> 
> Advantage of the databases is:
> 
> - that you may access appointments from almost any programming language
> 
> - that you may replicate database to other databases
> 
> - that it is multi-user system, for example group could be
>   scheduling appointments and collaborating
> 
> - that you may access databases remotely, you may use mobile device
> 
> - high speed data access for large amounts of records quickly and efficiently
> 
> - databases lessen the coding requirement drastically, they have
>   built in searches, sorting, intersections and plethora of
>   functions, sparing user to write substantial amount of
>   code. They are available in every GNU/Linux distribution and
>   BSD derivatives and other operating systems.
> 
> - In general databases work well across various devices. It means
>   their data can be exported, moved, transformed to other
>   data. It is not just Emacs Lisp, it becomes universal data
>   accessable also from Internet or browsers, command line, from X
>   programs, and various types of software.
> 
> - databases are very reliable and easy to backup.
> 
> More reading:
> https://www.postgresql.org/about/
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

pietru@caramail.com writes:

> He said to me that changes will be Gnu Software.  I know Gnu Elpa
> is a Package Archive, but not familiar with the details.

Gnu Elpa is what M-x list-packages accesses by default: an official
collection of elisp libraries that are more or less officially
considered as belonging to Emacs.

> > I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> > want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> > integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
>
> I will have to see who is involved with what, but understand if you
> are not an org developer.  Would this mean we concentrate on Diary and
> Calendar?

No, we don't, of course.  If you have a good idea, and someone likes to
work on it, fine.  With "I'm curious" I didn't mean that I search
something to work on, I really only meant "I'm curious" because I have
recently dealt with some of this stuff.


Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 2:13 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> pietru@caramail.com writes:
>
> > He said to me that changes will be Gnu Software.  I know Gnu Elpa
> > is a Package Archive, but not familiar with the details.
>
> Gnu Elpa is what M-x list-packages accesses by default: an official
> collection of elisp libraries that are more or less officially
> considered as belonging to Emacs.
>
> > > I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> > > want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> > > integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
> >
> > I will have to see who is involved with what, but understand if you
> > are not an org developer.  Would this mean we concentrate on Diary and
> > Calendar?
>
> No, we don't, of course.  If you have a good idea, and someone likes to
> work on it, fine.  With "I'm curious" I didn't mean that I search
> something to work on, I really only meant "I'm curious" because I have
> recently dealt with some of this stuff.

Thought are going to work on diary things and could be put in official version.
Apologies, but we are looking for changes to the Gnu version if done.
Some projects have made some changes.

> Regards,
>
> Michael.
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

Dear Pietru,

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-04 03:28]:
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CREATED:  [2020-12-04 Fri 08:58]
  :ID:       30c62de6-cc11-42b7-8f1b-5f23313b3a94
  :END:
> 
> > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 12:49 AM
> > From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> > To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> >
> > * Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2020-12-04 02:05]:
> > > pietru@caramail.com writes:
> > > 
> > > > Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> > > > addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> > > > asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> > > > he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> > > > suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> > > > changes will became part of the official release.
> > > 
> > > I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
> > > diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
> > > Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.
> > > 
> > > I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> > > want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> > > integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
> > > 
> > > I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
> > > inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
> > > end up in something useful for others.
> > 
> > {M-x appt-add} While called `appointments' it may be used for any type
> > of daily alarm or notification. I find warnings or alarms useful. User
> > may write something and be focused and is then reminded of
> > appointment. Or bread being baken. Or child that has to be driven from
> > kindergarten.
> > 
> > (appt-add TIME MSG &optional WARNTIME)
> > 
> >   Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 23.3.
> > 
> > Add an appointment for today at TIME with message MSG.
> > The time should be in either 24 hour format or am/pm format.
> > Optional argument WARNTIME is an integer (or string) giving the number
> > of minutes before the appointment at which to start warning.
> > The default is ‘appt-message-warning-time’.
> > 
> > 
> > I am currently thinking same as you, how to streamline and shorten and
> > make faster actions of life and education of others.
> > 
> > If you have structured data to deal with it is good to use databases.
> 
> Ok, it could be.  But bloody hell, you need to make an sql query.  And
> of course SQLight works on binary files.  It is problematic.

SQL queries are pretty much human understandable queries. Using
database spares are lot lot of problems.

This function replaces org-todo-list in org-agenda. You may try to see
what org-todo-list is doing.

(defun hyperscope-all-actions ()
  (interactive)
  (hyperscope-remember-parent)
  (hyperscope-highlight)
  (let* ((sql "SELECT hlinks_id FROM hlinks, hlinktypes, actionstatuses WHERE hlinktypes_id = hlinks_hlinktypes AND actionstatuses_id = 2 AND actionstatuses_id = hlinks_actionstatuses ORDER BY hlinks_globalpriority, hlinks_rank DESC;")
	 (id-list (rcd-sql-list sql *hs*)))
    (hyperscope nil nil nil nil nil id-list)
    (message "Hyperdocuments list of all pending actions")))

The main hyperscope function is about double then what you see. It
spares coding in human understandable way as it is already programmed,
there is no need to reinvent the wheel and integration that becomes
useful for user is just few functions away.

org-ql is Org query language that does useful queries for Org
users. It attempts to be glue to Org mode to replace SQL and does it
job of coping with text very good:

org-ql or Org query language
https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql

> It could be made an option, but using text should be kept.  We often
> do not have structured data.  At times we come up with things on the
> go, and don't have people who would help if things get too technical
> when things go wrong.  But with text you can hack things up on the
> spot and keep working.  I could be working in a swamp, so not into
> the cosmetic stuff.  Other people can use the fancy complex tree
> stuff.  There are many instances where it would be an overkill.

When doing some text writing on the go, mobile, one has to make notes
any how, be it on the paper, on mobile device, by sending oneself SMS,
email, or by telling fellows to write it down. Such information is
then processed later.

There is nothing that I think of the database unless during the
development stage. Once developed functions work for years, I just
looked back and I see decades passed. I could as well stay working
with the old PostgreSQL version. Inside of a database is text. All
editing is text.

When such simple function as above is integrated for user one only
needs key bindings. For my side it is '-a to see all hyperdocuments
with actions. If my staff member accesses the database there is
reference sheet or help screen and staff member just do ' and a to get
all hyperdocuments with actions. It could be as well letter "a" or
function key.

Minimizing the number of keys to get to the function execution is what
makes it useful for user.

Then we are people, people need to collaborate together. When using
database to store tasks those tasks become available in various other
forms.

- users can access tasks by using web interface or Emacs interface,
  but they may use console with `fzf' tool for fuzzy searching, they
  could use `dmenu' dynamic menu to find current agenda or display
  what is necessary with `zenity', or Emacs without integration could
  use a console script with C-u ! to insert agenda into Emacs, mobile
  devices use Javascript and access information, user can use any
  editor that allows remote execution and access one's one
  information, insert into editor or print it out, KDE could use its
  graphical user interface, Gnome could use its own and programs
  become integrated together.

fzf - fuzzy search
https://github.com/junegunn/fzf

fzf is for console with ivy and helm are for Emacs. Dmenu is for X
what ivy and helm are for Emacs.

There is nothing too technical with SQL databases. Emacs Lisp is way
more technical than majority of SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE queries
that one usually does not even think of as those are bound to some
keys or mouse click.

The Cherrytree software uses database, it is transparent to user which
never thinks about it.

Cherrytree - hierarchical note taking application with rich text and syntax highlighting
https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/

Example is this above hyperlink that I am inserting with keys / f for
filter "cherry" for query and W to insert into other window. WWW
hyperlinks are not structured data in Org mode and except of
activating them there are not many actions integrated for the user,
not that I know that one can share Org hyperlinks to other users in
easy manner, collaborate on such, add notes for hyperlink itself
without disturbing the heading's body, or assign various tasks to
hyperlink and relate it to user, group of people or rank the actual
number of hyperlink number of activations.

Org mode already handles structured data and with time it becomes more
and more with tedious coding that replaces database functions. 129 Org
mode files are there for review of the hard work developers did.

Database based Org mode may replace many of its actions with one file
or few, not 129.

Collaboration becomes possible as soon as networked ready databases
are involved.

> Could you have a look at Gnu Recutils, so we can read and write using
> rec-format.  Quite unsure how you are trying to do things, but sounds
> like office work to me.

GNU recutils is good tool and it is type of way better structured
database then what now Org structure offers. Actually I am surprised
that neither GDBM nor GNU recutils, nor GNU SQL similar type of query
language is not used with GNU Emacs in general as integrating with
other tools and liberating data helps with tremendous integration with
other software, other platforms, types of accesses. Things become
simpler and more useful, not complexer and less useful.

https://www.gnu.org/software/parallel/sql.html

Would it be used from beginning then underlying generic functions to
access data from Org mode could be today expanded to be using MySQL
and other databases with similar queries without user needing to know
about it. 

Jean

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[pietru]

> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 6:59 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: pietru@caramail.com
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Dear Pietru,
> 
> * pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2020-12-04 03:28]:
>   :PROPERTIES:
>   :CREATED:  [2020-12-04 Fri 08:58]
>   :ID:       30c62de6-cc11-42b7-8f1b-5f23313b3a94
>   :END:
> > 
> > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 at 12:49 AM
> > > From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> > > To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
> > >
> > > * Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2020-12-04 02:05]:
> > > > pietru@caramail.com writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > Fair enough, but the response could easily be interpreter to be
> > > > > addressed to us rather than to every emacs user.  I understand we
> > > > > asked for points of view, but that was after Michael informed us that
> > > > > he was planning some work on diary appointments and he asked me for
> > > > > suggestions on our planned use and strategy.  Emanuel confirmed that
> > > > > changes will became part of the official release.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding.  I'm a user of calendar,
> > > > diary, org and diary, and plan to donate some related stuff to Gnu
> > > > Elpa.  I dunno to what Emanuel answered.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm interested in making diary expressions more common and useful.  I
> > > > want to have something better than appointments, and a better
> > > > integration of these things with Org.  But I'm not an Org developer.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm just curious about how people are currently using this stuff, as an
> > > > inspiration for the direction of development of my stuff, so that it may
> > > > end up in something useful for others.
> > > 
> > > {M-x appt-add} While called `appointments' it may be used for any type
> > > of daily alarm or notification. I find warnings or alarms useful. User
> > > may write something and be focused and is then reminded of
> > > appointment. Or bread being baken. Or child that has to be driven from
> > > kindergarten.
> > > 
> > > (appt-add TIME MSG &optional WARNTIME)
> > > 
> > >   Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 23.3.
> > > 
> > > Add an appointment for today at TIME with message MSG.
> > > The time should be in either 24 hour format or am/pm format.
> > > Optional argument WARNTIME is an integer (or string) giving the number
> > > of minutes before the appointment at which to start warning.
> > > The default is ‘appt-message-warning-time’.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I am currently thinking same as you, how to streamline and shorten and
> > > make faster actions of life and education of others.
> > > 
> > > If you have structured data to deal with it is good to use databases.
> > 
> > Ok, it could be.  But bloody hell, you need to make an sql query.  And
> > of course SQLight works on binary files.  It is problematic.
> 
> SQL queries are pretty much human understandable queries. Using
> database spares are lot lot of problems.
> 
> This function replaces org-todo-list in org-agenda. You may try to see
> what org-todo-list is doing.
> 
> (defun hyperscope-all-actions ()
>   (interactive)
>   (hyperscope-remember-parent)
>   (hyperscope-highlight)
>   (let* ((sql "SELECT hlinks_id FROM hlinks, hlinktypes, actionstatuses WHERE hlinktypes_id = hlinks_hlinktypes AND actionstatuses_id = 2 AND actionstatuses_id = hlinks_actionstatuses ORDER BY hlinks_globalpriority, hlinks_rank DESC;")
> 	 (id-list (rcd-sql-list sql *hs*)))
>     (hyperscope nil nil nil nil nil id-list)
>     (message "Hyperdocuments list of all pending actions")))
> 
> The main hyperscope function is about double then what you see. It
> spares coding in human understandable way as it is already programmed,
> there is no need to reinvent the wheel and integration that becomes
> useful for user is just few functions away.
> 
> org-ql is Org query language that does useful queries for Org
> users. It attempts to be glue to Org mode to replace SQL and does it
> job of coping with text very good:
> 
> org-ql or Org query language
> https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql
> 
> > It could be made an option, but using text should be kept.  We often
> > do not have structured data.  At times we come up with things on the
> > go, and don't have people who would help if things get too technical
> > when things go wrong.  But with text you can hack things up on the
> > spot and keep working.  I could be working in a swamp, so not into
> > the cosmetic stuff.  Other people can use the fancy complex tree
> > stuff.  There are many instances where it would be an overkill.
> 
> When doing some text writing on the go, mobile, one has to make notes
> any how, be it on the paper, on mobile device, by sending oneself SMS,
> email, or by telling fellows to write it down. Such information is
> then processed later.
> 
> There is nothing that I think of the database unless during the
> development stage. Once developed functions work for years, I just
> looked back and I see decades passed. I could as well stay working
> with the old PostgreSQL version. Inside of a database is text. All
> editing is text.

Wouldn't you need some database model to build?
 
> When such simple function as above is integrated for user one only
> needs key bindings. For my side it is '-a to see all hyperdocuments
> with actions. If my staff member accesses the database there is
> reference sheet or help screen and staff member just do ' and a to get
> all hyperdocuments with actions. It could be as well letter "a" or
> function key.
> 
> Minimizing the number of keys to get to the function execution is what
> makes it useful for user.
> 
> Then we are people, people need to collaborate together. When using
> database to store tasks those tasks become available in various other
> forms.
> 
> - users can access tasks by using web interface or Emacs interface,
>   but they may use console with `fzf' tool for fuzzy searching, they
>   could use `dmenu' dynamic menu to find current agenda or display
>   what is necessary with `zenity', or Emacs without integration could
>   use a console script with C-u ! to insert agenda into Emacs, mobile
>   devices use Javascript and access information, user can use any
>   editor that allows remote execution and access one's one
>   information, insert into editor or print it out, KDE could use its
>   graphical user interface, Gnome could use its own and programs
>   become integrated together.
> 
> fzf - fuzzy search
> https://github.com/junegunn/fzf
> 
> fzf is for console with ivy and helm are for Emacs. Dmenu is for X
> what ivy and helm are for Emacs.
> 
> There is nothing too technical with SQL databases. Emacs Lisp is way
> more technical than majority of SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE queries
> that one usually does not even think of as those are bound to some
> keys or mouse click.
> 
> The Cherrytree software uses database, it is transparent to user which
> never thinks about it.
> 
> Cherrytree - hierarchical note taking application with rich text and syntax highlighting
> https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/
> 
> Example is this above hyperlink that I am inserting with keys / f for
> filter "cherry" for query and W to insert into other window. WWW
> hyperlinks are not structured data in Org mode and except of
> activating them there are not many actions integrated for the user,
> not that I know that one can share Org hyperlinks to other users in
> easy manner, collaborate on such, add notes for hyperlink itself
> without disturbing the heading's body, or assign various tasks to
> hyperlink and relate it to user, group of people or rank the actual
> number of hyperlink number of activations.
> 
> Org mode already handles structured data and with time it becomes more
> and more with tedious coding that replaces database functions. 129 Org
> mode files are there for review of the hard work developers did.
> 
> Database based Org mode may replace many of its actions with one file
> or few, not 129.
> 
> Collaboration becomes possible as soon as networked ready databases
> are involved.
> 
> > Could you have a look at Gnu Recutils, so we can read and write using
> > rec-format.  Quite unsure how you are trying to do things, but sounds
> > like office work to me.
> 
> GNU recutils is good tool and it is type of way better structured
> database then what now Org structure offers. Actually I am surprised
> that neither GDBM nor GNU recutils, nor GNU SQL similar type of query
> language is not used with GNU Emacs in general as integrating with
> other tools and liberating data helps with tremendous integration with
> other software, other platforms, types of accesses. Things become
> simpler and more useful, not complexer and less useful.

The good thing about Gnu Recutils is that one can make his own
database model.  
 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/parallel/sql.html
> 
> Would it be used from beginning then underlying generic functions to
> access data from Org mode could be today expanded to be using MySQL
> and other databases with similar queries without user needing to know
> about it. 
> 
> Jean
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Jean Louis]

> > There is nothing that I think of the database unless during the
> > development stage. Once developed functions work for years, I just
> > looked back and I see decades passed. I could as well stay working
> > with the old PostgreSQL version. Inside of a database is text. All
> > editing is text.
> 
> Wouldn't you need some database model to build?

Databases like SQL need always table design, and it is very simple to
do:

CREATE TABLE aliases (
aliases_id SERIAL NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY,
aliases_alias TEXT,
aliases_name TEXT,
aliases_email TEXT
);

that above is approach with unique ID that I always recommend or it
may be simpler without it:

CREATE TABLE aliases (
aliases_alias TEXT,
aliases_name TEXT,
aliases_email TEXT
);

Then few functions to insert aliases provide reliable structure for
email aliases that would last for decades. Above is very simple
example.

Emacs configuration could as well be stored in the database and one
could cycle through whole complex configurations with one key only,
edit such, export into init file and similar, share with others.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Michael Heerdegen wrote:

>> appointments I cannot find in either core Emacs or by
>> searching the [M]ELPAs [...]
>
> They are part of the built-in Calendar and Diary. The file's
> name is "appt.el", located in "lisp/calendar", and they are
> described in the user manual,
>
>   (info "(emacs) Appointments")

Thanks :)

I always thought I didn't need a diary because my memory was
so good. Now it isn't half as good and to be honest maybe it
wasn't THAT good even then (tho good) so maybe one should have
a diary.

OTOH all e-mail form a diary WRT your computer life. Maybe in
the USENET days it reflected to a higher degree also other
asex I mean aspects to your life.

No, writing long diary things, that was what people did BEFORE
computers, right? The damn blank white paper was the computer
in combination with a brain, hand, and pen. (And rulers and
stuff for engineers, tables for math/stats people ... girls
without boyfriends I don't know what gear they used but I'm
sure they had it or worked it out)

Anyway so no thanks for me, maybe one could just write down
single words, to help remembering? like "brunette Italian"...
OK, maybe THAT one would remember anyway, hey, the memory isn't
_that_ bad just because it isn't what it used to be, right?

When there are more memories than dreams, does that mean you
are getting old? I wonder how you'd quantify that tho...

  (< (how-many 'dreams) (how-many 'memories))

DNC :(

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 2:07 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Michael Heerdegen wrote:
>
> >> appointments I cannot find in either core Emacs or by
> >> searching the [M]ELPAs [...]
> >
> > They are part of the built-in Calendar and Diary. The file's
> > name is "appt.el", located in "lisp/calendar", and they are
> > described in the user manual,
> >
> >   (info "(emacs) Appointments")
>
> Thanks :)
>
> I always thought I didn't need a diary because my memory was
> so good. Now it isn't half as good and to be honest maybe it
> wasn't THAT good even then (tho good) so maybe one should have
> a diary.
>
> OTOH all e-mail form a diary WRT your computer life. Maybe in
> the USENET days it reflected to a higher degree also other
> asex I mean aspects to your life.
>
> No, writing long diary things, that was what people did BEFORE
> computers, right? The damn blank white paper was the computer
> in combination with a brain, hand, and pen. (And rulers and
> stuff for engineers, tables for math/stats people ... girls
> without boyfriends I don't know what gear they used but I'm
> sure they had it or worked it out)
>
> Anyway so no thanks for me, maybe one could just write down
> single words, to help remembering? like "brunette Italian"...
> OK, maybe THAT one would remember anyway, hey, the memory isn't
> _that_ bad just because it isn't what it used to be, right?
>
> When there are more memories than dreams, does that mean you
> are getting old? I wonder how you'd quantify that tho...
>
>   (< (how-many 'dreams) (how-many 'memories))

You should go to a hospital and ask them to remember appointments.  See how that goes!  :)

> DNC :(
>
> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 2:07 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Toggle appointment notification
>
> Michael Heerdegen wrote:
>
> >> appointments I cannot find in either core Emacs or by
> >> searching the [M]ELPAs [...]
> >
> > They are part of the built-in Calendar and Diary. The file's
> > name is "appt.el", located in "lisp/calendar", and they are
> > described in the user manual,
> >
> >   (info "(emacs) Appointments")
>
> Thanks :)
>
> I always thought I didn't need a diary because my memory was
> so good. Now it isn't half as good and to be honest maybe it
> wasn't THAT good even then (tho good) so maybe one should have
> a diary.
>
> OTOH all e-mail form a diary WRT your computer life. Maybe in
> the USENET days it reflected to a higher degree also other
> asex I mean aspects to your life.
>
> No, writing long diary things, that was what people did BEFORE
> computers, right? The damn blank white paper was the computer
> in combination with a brain, hand, and pen. (And rulers and
> stuff for engineers, tables for math/stats people ... girls
> without boyfriends I don't know what gear they used but I'm
> sure they had it or worked it out)
>
> Anyway so no thanks for me, maybe one could just write down
> single words, to help remembering? like "brunette Italian"...
> OK, maybe THAT one would remember anyway, hey, the memory isn't
> _that_ bad just because it isn't what it used to be, right?
>
> When there are more memories than dreams, does that mean you
> are getting old? I wonder how you'd quantify that tho...

To have dreams, one got to be asleep!

>   (< (how-many 'dreams) (how-many 'memories))
>
> DNC :(
>
> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> You should go to a hospital and ask them to remember
> appointments. See how that goes! :)

Next time you hear someone speak about the future say, hey, say
instead that the opposite will happen. Because that will make
it more likely to actually happen :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

>> When there are more memories than dreams, does that mean you
>> are getting old? I wonder how you'd quantify that tho...
>
> To have dreams, one got to be asleep!

Even androids do that, possibly.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

>>> When there are more memories than dreams, does that mean you
>>> are getting old? I wonder how you'd quantify that tho...
>>
>> To have dreams, one got to be asleep!
>
> Even androids do that, possibly.

Especially if you put it in a booster bag! what will the dreams
be like, then? People think this worked only in the GSM days.
Well, DIY :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> No, writing long diary things, that was what people did BEFORE
> computers, right?

The diary is not really intended to remember things like "brunette
Italian" but to keep track of and inform you about dates.  Like "Take
garbage down today!".  Garbage collection dates only need to be turing
computable for that to work.  Here in Germany, they are ... close to the
limit, but still in.

The name "diary" is a bit a misleading.  It had been the main organizer
Emacs had before Org-Mode had been invented.

Regards,

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Michael Heerdegen wrote:

> The diary is not really intended to remember things like
> "brunette Italian" but to keep track of and inform you about
> dates. Like "Take garbage down today!". Garbage collection
> dates only need to be turing computable for that to work.
> Here in Germany, they are ... close to the limit, but
> still in.

OK, a calendar?

Well, I have my life organized so that every day is the same,
but I can still choose to do different things, of course :)

But I remember a "brunette Italian" diary in Emacs? Or maybe it
was what you describe, only I either misunderstood the meaning
or just used the very base of its functionality? I remember
a minimalist interface with numbers (dates), and it
was colorful?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> I remember a minimalist interface with numbers (dates), and it was
> colorful?

Could have been the calendar, yes.

Michael.

Re: Toggle appointment notification

[Michael Heerdegen]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> > I remember a minimalist interface with numbers (dates), and it was
> > colorful?
>
> Could have been the calendar, yes.

I now remember there was a mode called called "Planner" that was not
built in, and it was a bit colorful.

Michael.