From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:49:20 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <560BF60C-2358-47C7-ADDB-5637047B2942@gnu.support> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1428"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 16:53:10 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpCdS-0000EV-K9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:53:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42106 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpCdR-00076A-LO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:53:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58736) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpCaJ-0004xM-Oh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:49:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:58673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpCaH-00062p-6f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:49:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608047360; bh=PHgCahG1s7nho6rGxEF6svHtjnN3Sav6y3C9yDr/Ft4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=T6L9eX9Ef+3pECQneov50XIphXZREArlK67DD2iuKEu4XSlNBu7LUAY+o9KN7A+u1 j5miMX7CVV6FalnH8Ez4fUZzNNr0SeVBUA/h3wIY1QocEamhvsRpAs5fQJZ7WQ0syJ KCWiWV9TDqKON0JuooE5PhMSrZUET/AMcH8fU++A= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:49:20 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <560BF60C-2358-47C7-ADDB-5637047B2942@gnu.support> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8kqE+c54DBPpGK5OkbiZWuVsA+f+g07w3GvMkuO6sHC2E0eae7HTWpfvRXUAVIZriq3Yk D964cKU263ez9Fjour6oVoaWltKeQW9RttanvER0FsbC4J+JJLKFqDKVdh7WIxTcarnbbsjA2TKp lkYqbWbzQ02Qr3h/4r6HJC7tv1iRtE154vFYWWhgMSS8tf5i/W4LGj+g9+fysUmQbBd47bYwTLMB gaZOnvXTaVv2mI7lFMsbm+5mftdmuL5txGu2WLgOaS2QgaIg90uEnHFp6o9/XwDmkODfxtlAwnOh r4= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:63I0tELQxaw=:pk6eWOO1BHtoyjhSoY2h/5 X9YzLhhL88qrxupnTymhT2BEYt1t09QVyZhmf4yB+SA7BzJF9IhL+gm8MvEf/sbymaKFdb9qX hdvGE9zLtbOzJXAgpMMukRwu0CmFSVPowoBLo2L1XHXn6G89S0cc1O6m1uWUpqBleP+MPoFls EfOlsweZ3LfOnI29OZsLtlSbs+POMjjkzCJ2qvpdraKDqD9Cbhsp09vmeBh5XKgXYoU+QpAFr 7rkAhJll1I9QbwIRTtiX7vz+LjCIiSHJVuUbftg43DTxE4FT4+XZPWBFfpDQWKtrzxtzlSNgM oSobTRwNAoD/FmNTZfe8CapJCKsZPrt6VKfQR3hboS8wpS8zisnMi4VSjGD7XfZOO92hznW60 cz6UlNGkUso7t6Sz4n1AVG/MpKAFm1VZQnGqRKkSba+vV70A4HkTHZyZ79gQ0xdgP43u40myp XZ6yzs92843+Ohk1aWC+PZQiIetBvozLUNQRe8Rm43bHky1aD8hSuc8zi849G/VdPyTxHJmHC Qs/s5zyAL3xYp9aXYURRUOPyhZ++QkV49VwMHTKuAPIDJ0dHztv5PpJelFEqcEUa/83yyWlWf xmxDMhSodlXz8= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260873 Archived-At: It occurs to me that rather than enhancing emacs, we are regressing it. What we need is better functionality for some users which is not about enabling or disabling a long known feature. As one can see, few users program in lisp. Consequently, assuming that people are knowledgeable about elisp programming is wrong. > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:00 AM > From: "Jean Louis" > To: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > Only small subset of users answered the survey. Emacs is used by much la= rger number of people. One can see that survey says that users who did ans= wer the survey are on level higher. > > If you disable the toolbar you are doing it for those who answered the s= urvey, not for those coming to Emacs, larger number of users. > > If I rememberv well survey also shows that large number of users use it = since shorter time like one year meaning that larger number of users drop = in the first year. Finding that cause and improving there would keep those= users. > > > > On December 15, 2020 5:30:20 AM UTC, Lars Ingebrigtsen = wrote: > >In that mega thread about modernising Emacs, there was a lot of talk > >about getting more data about how people use Emacs, and then... do > >something accordingly. > > > >Behold: https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ > > > >So here's the first thread about actionable takeaways from the survey. > >(Consider all arguments about the survey not being representative as > >having been made already.) > > > >Of 7.3K respondents, 5K disable toolbars, which is more than two > >thirds. So perhaps toolbars should default to off? I know toolbars > >were all the rage in the 90s, but that's apparently not the case now. > > > >Opinions? > > > Jean > >