From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:56:11 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2288"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Emacs developers , Dmitry Gutov , John Yates To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 23:58:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpfkD-0000Sj-I3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:58:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57608 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpfkC-00028R-IR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:58:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43882) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpfiU-0001TO-12 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:56:18 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:49233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpfiQ-0002xa-VM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:56:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608159371; bh=MXhxTJ/SIK4A/Kou1Q3gZCIMYV8CKb0CGsygkh+E/JI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=e1xY3nBJXFfFmyLrnrj1DesYZQPykzgY/O64wd9fzJLxODEGBlAuNCh3ZrGGdouEy uySA7YGzbSjCuNbI1KaZSoiY88qoUHF+5vvTBfAig1Dzg4fHHovFW4t4UczGFaq+1D 9e1TOEQtaYljS+DGgpV7VQmY4tu+iSiIddiXaIG8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs11.server.lan [172.19.170.179]) (via HTTP); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:56:11 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8VQGImMxACbkQY3I3bvR0MjIL/ws4JQY5YrgKM2RkuvsuYDVTM6dd2OGN6CvGXkFh/MZu jkujX77K1o07+Gp2qUWoNXuZ4p5tyWd94h1h4Vds6kOAP3HB5eYrUv8tm4cWCdgRodK52yX2c0Ay AJYCm02sIUcuTs8HyJhc1mlM29kV9wj37zoZOf9KKNk/xk9sfq47ZX0xAT8efRyKGiU7f6eBZrrs kvbB9PTZh5kK5Yp5+4OAXNPzRiAmhY0TSuIEdkgzT9kz3nGmFBe+77XPShYc6ecvWM+pFR/do4Oe t8= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pTmNuXKKWIA=:7KQhE0K/XwVfAYe76fX92r MSSAn38yvGY4RFt9PSl0482plnHXOCczu9zW8pZidFiij9p9O0KryC380B/fdxVnzU5vYpHHc T0OLh8pZDEC9nSIJF77GUgPF+8UjB8hgdZsmdg7SsqRd8IZScLmlCtOvn6MjhbmiqoD6lKnQX fWFbnZMYRx3rVyHjs5NoBylCrPyzxAPX4CTlKT2vMQDjcEN6V1cWvnB1e7TgMX+4d7Mtha0Vr ePkqqlqDTHAfSBRBH4AjYxG1X73UuaMhPGDm0KrDAyRXEBx+3+y7eHbRJzbwkE+Kxb/PodhQs NsUUCDMAGHqeW24AwMJdAFBPUHSO8r9yrTulugd+0qj6HHUQzD2xEPU7Xx61XOOXTQaCtA/5W dSZ7Fao1qXO8zm8f1JGYizxSedHWzPcR/s4b26qpGw2WLOz3Lyzg5Mt+IQHdrOY953dlS0QEq LMr4pddrFZKXK4QulRmIHqqG64BJmxGnR6lwgBC4gcGLif/fykgRYLIGBxZ3gk+Edg2LyQoxM O8+COvZE7/QpGFYcjc5/KSycjx4+PZ5l4zgmxAphAArA6M7Pb/ueQ4ISN20pmf9DikCnLMNXs qU3lttVHxNZv8= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261074 Archived-At:
 
 
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 10:33 PM
From: "chad" <yandros@gmail.com>
To: "John Yates" <john@yates-sheets.org>
Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi@gnus.org>, "Emacs developers" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>, "Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars
 
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:20 PM Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> But OTOH we have other buttons (New file, Open, Undo, Cut and Paste)
> that a lot of users expect from a text editor.

My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of the
population was computer literate.  These days I would expect them only
on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute beginners.
 
I think this expectation is solid, but there's a wrinkle: If the toolbar is largely aimed at helping new users make use of emacs, then having an obvious way to do common functionality that _doesn't use the common bindings_ seems like a good use of toolbar space. Now that the buttons advertise the emacs bindings for these functions in a new-user-friendly way, they're potentially even more helpful, since they both provide a clear way to save/cut/copy/paste/undo, and they also teach the default emacs bindings for same.
 
 
--- Not fully correct.  Toolbars assist those who suffer from pain pressing keys.
 
To this end, I'd suggest adding a button to the default toolbar that launches a short tutorial (in a new frame on gui systems), that talks about these common actions/bindings, with a next-step link describing why emacs uses these bindings and how to change them. It should also have an option to remove the tutorial-launching button from the toolbar.
 
I can probably put together a prototype of this if people would like, and I recall some pieces of similar ideas floating around emacs-devel in the past 6-8 months. Would this be interesting to people?
 
~Chad