From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Quote by Knuth Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:05:28 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20210705154121.GB6395@tuxteam.de> <878s2j2onn.fsf@zoho.eu> <87r1gbdr6d.fsf@zoho.eu> <877dhsfrxs.fsf@zoho.eu> <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> <20210719070707.GA2832@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40406"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 19 10:06:05 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OHq-000A7I-QY for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:06:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42254 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OHo-0000vm-VL for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:06:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OHT-0000uq-3y for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:05:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:58057) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OHQ-0003cu-R8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:05:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1626681928; bh=NzzooSXa/O6MmH8IRdVRMCsRDJNH+58GTOyR8WnJQNo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=AmAfU9ljGvHAcu8bBCIh+ZMl2kL8gkc7cwrRuEI24JAGNzhPAMfBbujwDliDsqTud tE2g453GrYxL4GXsfzWY2d7PGakpge6Ao7e4RbKpUOXuJMe2ojvSoQcjyEQ2HyQXcW pIqVZEyVadkMzfetl55OVBcpF8VlJvAARU0L9/oM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.40.31] ([92.251.40.31]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs09.server.lan [172.19.170.177]) (via HTTP); Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:05:28 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <20210719070707.GA2832@tuxteam.de> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1QBxlRsoBZzCkYNGhEw8gyAJVEu1n6xSnWEUQWatD9Gw3XVfR9NYTgsYwgsT1neXfltHV KFOUaEIPCY07UdiamFhhpJdOxE53I6zviNZEz9DUzzRijWGzeuvOaT1WwpkjRmKvp4cx8Vz73Sl4 ZIJKgTK5mVulLpPIHGAKhH/kEB/EqzZMDdccEGtlbz0lInadSzL70tECT8O8Yedt7te4u6dUq4k1 CiPPfTKK/KsyLLdeOSTgCFNqfbaLk9AJ561903osyk9NeoW0qcthZMYIDbLxZnTDgMtR4y1KsCp8 l4= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:9tqqp45eCLw=:9TMAwRLd0gpaGY24zg1P7/ G9adaH5gb5RtkkZxTvjlns8ORozs/wChj9JjBG1sGrYKoJ0+pbnc2FH1E40b/b17oL0x6YXRo KSVNivgQm0dN9fCx9Ndbm1Ax5BOi8quTVYdWvTVDu55IIGh1A9fJ4WTC/miUG9IijGyMzJ+Dj gq9EAlp7vf5NEwcQKwuLs44jTTdTpfrrW29RF03EsQ68rsowacR/udp17jQTKt2gjYZsTNKQc DH6VUvGwAMOrlYYo86jAeC0k3QIx+dr0tt4WHpRdJtJWTnYgHKxc7/bpy8RZp0UtaHZbBJMGN RMc6m6OmZsPu8elrRqretuGcD7RcXENS8ZeeTTuuIj8W7mLP24NTln95fqEpsFNF6V2Sek5lm 24kad1jhrk27AyQku3A3MRxwgrXVxIsz0C1K6nKXypR/a2DO04lED2h7AYjeRNI/YNjPYOrKZ kOVxCJh6kUkqmYuDsUsAQZ3ZdAwNcumUpWW0V7nv4OsN1SRyo4kwyuXOTyqvPHv3RBHCan9W1 jNeKp4FMJk8MajCmeK9I0DRNV6mjDbUTM969PMu6ztwh1T4cn8tN2Veys8Fa8DuTgkuzoqn0r t+BgQossZjWNSIUjGxtZLA+b12cSshL+m0RQY23gG5SipYjYcrWygIKBMOEUi7ezrfTkXaEjO Ut3VOjh15FMdjQJPZxXac8tEjkRaI+g3Mdf5lgKFuBUNSUfDtJo0U42B1rIF4oOo6dFvWNXKc BCGbU3MpcV7MbXiI4/X45nBpYQaOcSPrTuHe2jmDT6dVehsaHvqHj3p8H9Mgucff0dHGny2J Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.22; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131855 Archived-At: > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 at 7:07 PM > From: tomas@tuxteam=2Ede > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu=2Eorg > Subject: Re: Quote by Knuth > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 12:14:18AM +0200, Emanuel Berg via Users list fo= r the GNU Emacs text editor wrote: > > Christopher Dimech wrote: > >=20 > > > Literate programming is an enhanced macro substitution > > > package tuned to the task of rearranging source code=2E > >=20 > > We know what a macro is but what is literate programming > > except it relies on macros? Does it rely to macros MORE than > > everyday programming, including programming that uses macros, > > or are the macros CLOSER to natural languages, maybe? >=20 > This discussion is so full of category errors that it's difficult > to say anything relevant anymore=2E Let me pick two senses for > the term "literate programming": >=20 > "Literate programming" is a pretty generic term=2E The most you > can say about it is that it tries to combine "writing for humans" > ("literature") and "writing for machines" ("programming")=2E Talking > about macros in this context would be a category error [0] like > saying "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"=2E >=20 > "Literate programming" as coined by Knuth (no, Mr=2E Dimech, you > probably won't be interested -- for me, you can't overstate Knuth > too much) is /technically/ based on WEB, which is a text substitution > system, so can be regarded as a macro [1] system=2E If you look closely, > TeX [2] and METAFONT [3] are "text substitution systems" a=2Ek=2Ea=2E > macro [4] expanders=2E PS: Thousands of other people have a doctorate in mathematics apart from K= nuth=2E=20 But I have read Knuth's papers and understand exactly his position on what is literate programming=2E He mas not combining "writing for humans" ("literature") and "writing for machines" (programming)=2E He wanted prog= ramming to be like literature=2E Thusly I am in disagreement with him=2E Without Knuth others would have delved into the analysis of algorithms=2E = =20 Mostly it is about the development of tex everybody gets fired about=2E = =20 Without tex, few would have heard of him=2E Still, mathematical typesetti= ng already existed before Knuth=2E In actual fact, he got all his ideas from the typesetting that already existed=2E In "Mathematical Typography," Bul= letin of the American Mathematical Society, March 1979, Vol=2E 1, No=2E 2, 337-7= 2; he stated that his typesetting ideas originated from the Transactions of the America= n Mathematical Society, which began publication in 1900; and some other journal (a dutch = one if I remember)=2E=20 And, let us not deny it, with a lot of help from Guy Steele=2E =20 I remember him getting annoyed that the delta was ugly, and couldn't stand= to write papers using that symbol=2E Now, he can't stand to read papers that still= use it the old delta=2E=20 > It was the rage among some computer scientists of that time (1980s), > and Donald Knuth seems to have been interested in them back then=2E >=20 > So yes, in the second, strict, sense macros do play a role=2E By the > way, and to try to put things on-topic (hope? HAH!), noweb is also > a text expansion machinery, inspired=2E=2E=2E yes, on Knuth's WEB=2E Go > figure=2E TeX has got people to focus on pretty printing, which is what typesetting = is mainly about=2E But structural and semantic info are receiving greater and great= er awareness as opposed to formatting or displaying aspects=2E LaTeX mended some of th= e problems with TeX by turning a pretty printing system into a structured documentation sy= stem=2E Today, I criticise how texinfo continues using Tex for its formatting engi= ne, rather than getting rewritten over either a LaTex engine or an improvement of it=2E > Cheers >=20 > [0] https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Category_error > [1] https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/WEB > [2] https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/TeX > [3] https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/METAFONT >=20 > - tom=C3=A1s >