From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:45:40 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87y1tmmmiv.fsf@web.de> <87sfjumm07.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18251"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Michael Heerdegen , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 11 19:53:54 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oiJRy-0004W0-5N for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:53:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59210 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiJRv-0007MK-1m for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:53:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60860) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiJKD-000489-IF for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:45:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:33145) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiJKB-0007E5-GS for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:45:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665510340; bh=EXPBY9C04XYUxMzWIwYdjP4JlDkoF7Wx8YgMyW7mbl0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=SbPD5x4DFA/StRgpERGbIjlDLeLeat1Kn34KMhDmtMrZXHIxwXLAe+zWu/LwjAMEI WpBaU/4/wUqCwCMtqq178vLs33TpX/dziuh9AeTdzryWkCdldG3V55ezHz2pzBCK/L gYXwuLikkX1Z7na6AJM/U90pPhPvzusHly1A2Alc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs06.server.lan [172.19.170.174]) (via HTTP); Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:45:40 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3LDw6RW/Cg0NpVfxP7Nh14fIsvTe+CnMBu4HupKXXW+gST1X8fd0B9vvn99wZvKQ7bdso VnmQTqkSlQMVjhTQAp7yc4z0QApf+NmP/vQE46AmHT90fD5uwWG9HLv5g58OX8JM6xpsPcaJAKh5 gktNEElHoJCd3gjFGMOn/iDwnoUusE6KKYEzjbzL1KCLn1EyI+OE/XwI1nmbiQtZwY54fI0pGHRC r8NySG+bSxP6r6zJWabKvs3hvddHsaOxWhU0BAaN8oOuN54h+WPG3liwYhkrtOHnyfijOFoW/2IV ME= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:zBXWvwo3Lkc=:HEzYx8RR/gOm2ymxSP8lvz HtoOStY0sxQWXJ4pP1a4nOZq7yntWfwPNsaXll75Q0qa/co1z5kMRnZu4vicfZRTFB+MeyObe F/i3+CaG2rByc8llv1P2XrHNEOqe9VaGPIG9C8U4RcFbGjiB+WqQ59+xTciYUySe1aTNFf5hQ R1kLexoOx8VDcGaau4JPRA7tOYEWNlHKW+09SUNbbx/sJZL/pXcfZdH6uLbPYba9w3od6SQTn c8aBAjJnMcSWgX4lHl8Lhhqvp3/hx7GiI6XKkzBUFsGcFcGFrIsXMmZQdZ5PckP3Lcw4sc9ZD o30nDRrRHGZWnYsZQeBDf8mPJ0PhyQzgfte3KfzP7iMEknOuICiqcY3PBBx6HpKPsb6J2T9Qm w2il673o2PG+YON8LNAzE6J9IUSLgAoldUGz3XFLLtO6S68Vergw17YWLnR77FtFKpZL3u6yF kR+wBVAmVLedJZ9ImQPIJkhh8HtjGikw6kMF42AS/QnSLbroEIPkimwX3nhptyPy25mWJOHBa jPJ1INGGTevQ6qmr2BC7VhuHMP/x0saw9cCGVmxuaWrcAr0V87ys+gptpPZS7FbQzvLrjxcdz ESLd02GpkQNdGGNkVI522iAjzkYavYQkBnewNQXjZwAWwIZaqQOy+QVnnDIwX9M9zJF6kxnuM tBNWrDBy86IMSwSYy4iT4zLd1PNQlDfXQzLJ3qFil9SNe+0g8CDzy9VOM7ureRSd1Dhdf6zxN 3ENLyMNESlknb7BMe70I9CqaA5PyZTKLizuUKEEP0geAJNCWDsCeM/e1FxQhaGXdnygXv7Mp Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:139822 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 3:57 AM > From: "Drew Adams" > To: "Michael Heerdegen" , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.= org" > Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation > > > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects ot= her > > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff= , > > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule. > > FWIW, I disagree that "it is an error". > It may be poor form, unfriendly, or impolite, > but it's not an error. And yes, it's a "rule" > (guideline), and a useful one. > > But it need not always be poor form, unfriendly, > or impolite, provided users are sufficiently > informed clearly what loading the library does, > that is, just what side effects it performs. > > In general, yes, it's _not_ user-friendly etc. > In particular, however, it could be. > > It's analogous to turning on a minor mode > (though not the same): If you know what loading > some package does, and you load it, then you > are, in effect, turning on a "mode". It's a > user _choice_ to load a library. > > One big disadvantage, however is that you might > not have read the doc explaining what loading > does. Another big disadvantage is that > `unload-feature' and `-unload-function' > might not (likely will not) truly reverse > everything that loading did. > > To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of side > effects while loading a library. I'm just > disagreeing that that's an error, or that it's > always necessarily a big bad thing. > > Your init file is a "library". You load it. > It performs side effects. It's your choice to > load it (versus `emacs -Q'). Of course, you're > likely the only user of your init file, so at > worst you shoot only yourself in the foot. > > There's a fuzzy gradation from such a Lisp file > and a "library" or "package". (That's Lisp and > free software.) =46rom my perspective, the situation in a bit different. How can users restore to a fresh system when things get messed up? There should be clear instructions to users.