Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Ulrich Mueller]

[I'd have expected a previous discussion on this, but I failed to find
one in the archives of this mailing list. Sorry if this is a duplicate.]

File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:

| Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
| time by posting it to this website.

This allows the copyright holder to unilaterally revoke the freedoms,
which I believe fails the free software definition [2]:

"In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be permanent and
irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the
software has the power to revoke the license, or retroactively add
restrictions to its terms, without your doing anything wrong to give
cause, the software is not free."

IMHO it also fails Debian's "Tentacles of Evil" test [3] which says:

"To be free, the license cannot allow even the author to take away the
required freedoms."

I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)


[1] https://www.unicode.org/copyright.html
[2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.en
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:42 PM
> From: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
>
> [I'd have expected a previous discussion on this, but I failed to find
> one in the archives of this mailing list. Sorry if this is a duplicate.]
>
> File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
> Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:
>
> | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
> | time by posting it to this website.
>
> This allows the copyright holder to unilaterally revoke the freedoms,
> which I believe fails the free software definition [2]:
>
> "In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be permanent and
> irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the
> software has the power to revoke the license, or retroactively add
> restrictions to its terms, without your doing anything wrong to give
> cause, the software is not free."
>
> IMHO it also fails Debian's "Tentacles of Evil" test [3] which says:
>
> "To be free, the license cannot allow even the author to take away the
> required freedoms."
>
> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)

Correct, they are not covered by a free license.

> [1] https://www.unicode.org/copyright.html
> [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.en
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance
>
>

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:49 PM
> From: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> To: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
>
>
>
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:42 PM
> > From: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
> > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Subject: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
> >
> > [I'd have expected a previous discussion on this, but I failed to find
> > one in the archives of this mailing list. Sorry if this is a duplicate.]
> >
> > File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
> > Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:

Look here,

https://www.unicode.org/license.txt

> > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
> > | time by posting it to this website.
> >
> > This allows the copyright holder to unilaterally revoke the freedoms,
> > which I believe fails the free software definition [2]:
> >
> > "In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be permanent and
> > irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the
> > software has the power to revoke the license, or retroactively add
> > restrictions to its terms, without your doing anything wrong to give
> > cause, the software is not free."
> >
> > IMHO it also fails Debian's "Tentacles of Evil" test [3] which says:
> >
> > "To be free, the license cannot allow even the author to take away the
> > required freedoms."
> >
> > I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
> > a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
> > without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
> > The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)
>
> Correct, they are not covered by a free license.
>
> > [1] https://www.unicode.org/copyright.html
> > [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.en
> > [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Look here,

> https://www.unicode.org/license.txt

I don't see the text of that file anywhere in the Emacs sources. Is it
supposed to replace admin/unidata/copyright.html or to be applied in
addition to it?

In the latter case, the problem isn't solved, because we still have:

>> > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement
>> > | at any time by posting it to this website.

Also, I don't see a reference to license.txt in any header of
the individual files in admin/unidata/. They either link to
https://www.unicode.org/terms_of_use.html (which redirects to
copyright.html) or they don't have any license notice at all.

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 14:31:50 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> 
> > Look here,
> 
> > https://www.unicode.org/license.txt
> 
> I don't see the text of that file anywhere in the Emacs sources. Is it
> supposed to replace admin/unidata/copyright.html or to be applied in
> addition to it?

admin/unidata/copyright.html points to it.

> Also, I don't see a reference to license.txt in any header of
> the individual files in admin/unidata/. They either link to
> https://www.unicode.org/terms_of_use.html (which redirects to
> copyright.html) or they don't have any license notice at all.

See above.

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> > https://www.unicode.org/license.txt
>> 
>> I don't see the text of that file anywhere in the Emacs sources. Is it
>> supposed to replace admin/unidata/copyright.html or to be applied in
>> addition to it?

> admin/unidata/copyright.html points to it.

But is a hyperlink enough? The text of license.txt seems to imply that
it must be included with the sources (or documentation):

| [...] provided that either (a) this copyright and permission notice
| appear with all copies of the Data Files or Software, or (b) this
| copyright and permission notice appear in associated Documentation.

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: dimech@gmx.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 14:59:31 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> > https://www.unicode.org/license.txt
> >> 
> >> I don't see the text of that file anywhere in the Emacs sources. Is it
> >> supposed to replace admin/unidata/copyright.html or to be applied in
> >> addition to it?
> 
> > admin/unidata/copyright.html points to it.
> 
> But is a hyperlink enough? The text of license.txt seems to imply that
> it must be included with the sources (or documentation):
> 
> | [...] provided that either (a) this copyright and permission notice
> | appear with all copies of the Data Files or Software, or (b) this
> | copyright and permission notice appear in associated Documentation.

Please read the text of copyright.html carefully, and I think you will
see why there's no problem.

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 12:42:17 +0200
> 
> [I'd have expected a previous discussion on this, but I failed to find
> one in the archives of this mailing list. Sorry if this is a duplicate.]
> 
> File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
> Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:
> 
> | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
> | time by posting it to this website.
> 
> This allows the copyright holder to unilaterally revoke the freedoms,
> which I believe fails the free software definition [2]:
> 
> "In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be permanent and
> irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the
> software has the power to revoke the license, or retroactively add
> restrictions to its terms, without your doing anything wrong to give
> cause, the software is not free."

This was indeed discussed, and the conclusion was that it's okay for
us to distribute these files, and to distribute data based on those
files as part of Emacs.

Other Free Software packages do the same.  Example: HarfBuzz.

As to their reserved rights to change the conditions: when they do (if
they ever do), we will reassess this issue.

> IMHO it also fails Debian's "Tentacles of Evil" test [3] which says:
> 
> "To be free, the license cannot allow even the author to take away the
> required freedoms."

We are not part of Debian, so not bound by their policies, such as
they are.

> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)

So therefore why are you raising this non-issue, from your POV?

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> This was indeed discussed, and the conclusion was that it's okay for
> us to distribute these files, and to distribute data based on those
> files as part of Emacs.

Could you point me to the previous discussion please?

I don't disagree that these files can be distributed (at least
currently). However, merely being distributable is a much lower standard
than being free.

> Other Free Software packages do the same.  Example: HarfBuzz.

> As to their reserved rights to change the conditions: when they do (if
> they ever do), we will reassess this issue.

That's not what the free software definition says.

>> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
>> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
>> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
>> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)

> So therefore why are you raising this non-issue, from your POV?

But is it a non-issue? Why would Unicode claim copyright for these files
if they aren't copyrightable?

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 14:48:51 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > This was indeed discussed, and the conclusion was that it's okay for
> > us to distribute these files, and to distribute data based on those
> > files as part of Emacs.
> 
> Could you point me to the previous discussion please?

No, it was not on a public forum.

> I don't disagree that these files can be distributed (at least
> currently). However, merely being distributable is a much lower standard
> than being free.

As you yourself say, correctly, these files contain data, not code,
and the data is of the kind that hardly ever justifies copyright.

> >> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
> >> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
> >> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
> >> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)
> 
> > So therefore why are you raising this non-issue, from your POV?
> 
> But is it a non-issue? Why would Unicode claim copyright for these files
> if they aren't copyrightable?

I have no idea.  Feel free to ask them.

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 12:52 AM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
>
> > From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 14:48:51 +0200
> > 
> > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > 
> > > This was indeed discussed, and the conclusion was that it's okay for
> > > us to distribute these files, and to distribute data based on those
> > > files as part of Emacs.
> > 
> > Could you point me to the previous discussion please?
> 
> No, it was not on a public forum.
> 
> > I don't disagree that these files can be distributed (at least
> > currently). However, merely being distributable is a much lower standard
> > than being free.
> 
> As you yourself say, correctly, these files contain data, not code,
> and the data is of the kind that hardly ever justifies copyright.
> 
> > >> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
> > >> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
> > >> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
> > >> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)
> > 
> > > So therefore why are you raising this non-issue, from your POV?
> > 
> > But is it a non-issue? Why would Unicode claim copyright for these files
> > if they aren't copyrightable?
> 
> I have no idea.  Feel free to ask them.
 
The Unicode Consortium’s data files and software are globally and freely licensed 
under the Unicode License (https://www.unicode.org/license.txt).

Only the Unicode Code Charts are made available under their own specific and narrow
terms and conditions.

>> In the latter case, the problem isn't solved, because we still have:

>> > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement
>> > | at any time by posting it to this website.

It does not matter whether they have the right to modify the agreement.
When you get the data files and software, you use the license that was
given to you at the time.  Thus no problems ensue. 

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Message-ID: <trinity-d9ef77db-a95a-4e70-9718-ecb5c1eefa5c-1692623473557@3c-app-mailcom-bs13>
  > From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
  > To: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
  > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
  > Subject: Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
  > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 15:11:13 +0200
  > Sensitivity: Normal
  > In-Reply-To: <835y58v9qi.fsf@gnu.org>


  > > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 12:52 AM
  > > From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
  > > To: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
  > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
  > > Subject: Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
  > >
  > > > From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
  > > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
  > > > Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 14:48:51 +0200
  > > > 
  > > > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
  > > > 
  > > > > This was indeed discussed, and the conclusion was that it's okay for
  > > > > us to distribute these files, and to distribute data based on those
  > > > > files as part of Emacs.
  > > > 
  > > > Could you point me to the previous discussion please?
  > > 
  > > No, it was not on a public forum.
  > > 
  > > > I don't disagree that these files can be distributed (at least
  > > > currently). However, merely being distributable is a much lower standard
  > > > than being free.
  > > 
  > > As you yourself say, correctly, these files contain data, not code,
  > > and the data is of the kind that hardly ever justifies copyright.
  > > 
  > > > >> I am also surprised that these lists in admin/unidata/ or, in general,
  > > > >> a character set can be copyrightable. (For example, everyone uses ASCII
  > > > >> without thinking about copyright of the underlying ANSI X3.4 standard.
  > > > >> The same applies to several much larger CJK character sets.)
  > > > 
  > > > > So therefore why are you raising this non-issue, from your POV?
  > > > 
  > > > But is it a non-issue? Why would Unicode claim copyright for these files
  > > > if they aren't copyrightable?
  > > 
  > > I have no idea.  Feel free to ask them.
 
  > The Unicode Consortium’s data files and software are globally and freely licensed 
  > under the Unicode License (https://www.unicode.org/license.txt).

  > Only the Unicode Code Charts are made available under their own specific and narrow
  > terms and conditions.

  > >> In the latter case, the problem isn't solved, because we still have:

  > >> > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement
  > >> > | at any time by posting it to this website.

  > It does not matter whether they have the right to modify the agreement.
  > When you get the data files and software, you use the license that was
  > given to you at the time.  Thus no problems ensue. 

I think that means we have no need to worry.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
  > Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:

  > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
  > | time by posting it to this website.

I think this means that Unicode, Inc could start releasing under a different
license.  But I don't think that would affect copies we have already download.

However, I will check that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 1:03 PM
> From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> To: "Ulrich Mueller" <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Is admin/unidata/copyright.html a free software license?
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > File admin/unidata/copyright.html (also at [1]) contains the "Unicode
>   > Terms of Use" which say in section H.2:
>
>   > | Unicode, Inc. shall have the right to modify this Agreement at any
>   > | time by posting it to this website.
>
> I think this means that Unicode, Inc could start releasing under a different
> license.  But I don't think that would affect copies we have already download.
>
> However, I will check that.

Copies already downloaded are not affected.



> --
> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>