From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: uzibalqa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 00:12:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87y1tmmmiv.fsf@web.de> <87sfjumm07.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12954"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Drew Adams , Michael Heerdegen , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Christopher Dimech Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 12 02:12:36 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPMR-0003Ck-Fa for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:12:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52884 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPMQ-00077j-3p for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:12:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50646) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPM4-00077a-5F for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:12:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:61525) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPM2-0005Sd-3F for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:12:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=rfgklja5o5ahjppkpzpgfjif24.protonmail; t=1665533528; x=1665792728; bh=5JrczRh9cusTM864IsbjeLyq0+rTLvhvJo9D1PMQeR8=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=X2b3xPDKIUhtqCjwVj6RXtP5gWq3LdN/2BWXKm4OXlJNJOwMsGEGqXIYCOwdCbXYP Zj3RixAhARhOmTdCsgpfYCUJ/WJjX5eK+DAmNLdzzVxzjRZ2ebx22Ep6KsWKGGH12j NyirQ1d2FWmKMU3DStTE3R0yj0bc9WpMHXiaEW0tW1mY5gZNDU6MQJ9K1SCWec496E O3gggitZKiN1JqCj7lY+RS76bLGuWfwpgehk55ha/H1rBDG5HGN+vOhiYYctSY61mb ElWLSoyJSxtgPhI5psvl1NaBYlenddJn7cWQEd5y84XWzYk7k4xTkNfft7KM+0n33g 9Y6SIPuSzMfhA== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.25; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4325.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:139838 Archived-At: Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Christopher Dimech wrote: > > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 3:57 AM > > From: "Drew Adams" drew.adams@oracle.com > > To: "Michael Heerdegen" michael_heerdegen@web.de, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.o= rg" help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation > >=20 > > > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects o= ther > > > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuf= f, > > > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule. > >=20 > > FWIW, I disagree that "it is an error". > > It may be poor form, unfriendly, or impolite, > > but it's not an error. And yes, it's a "rule" > > (guideline), and a useful one. > >=20 > > But it need not always be poor form, unfriendly, > > or impolite, provided users are sufficiently > > informed clearly what loading the library does, > > that is, just what side effects it performs. > >=20 > > In general, yes, it's not user-friendly etc. > > In particular, however, it could be. > >=20 > > It's analogous to turning on a minor mode > > (though not the same): If you know what loading > > some package does, and you load it, then you > > are, in effect, turning on a "mode". It's a > > user choice to load a library. > >=20 > > One big disadvantage, however is that you might > > not have read the doc explaining what loading > > does. Another big disadvantage is that > > `unload-feature' and` -unload-function' > > might not (likely will not) truly reverse > > everything that loading did. > >=20 > > To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of side > > effects while loading a library. I'm just > > disagreeing that that's an error, or that it's > > always necessarily a big bad thing. > >=20 > > Your init file is a "library". You load it. > > It performs side effects. It's your choice to > > load it (versus `emacs -Q'). Of course, you're > > likely the only user of your init file, so at > > worst you shoot only yourself in the foot. I do not see it is only me that gets shot, because the command emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white backgrou= nd. =20 > > There's a fuzzy gradation from such a Lisp file > > and a "library" or "package". (That's Lisp and > > free software.) >=20 >=20 > From my perspective, the situation in a bit different. How can > users restore to a fresh system when things get messed up? >=20 > There should be clear instructions to users.