From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Riley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: emacs mode line suggestions Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:10:23 +0100 Message-ID: References: <15962952-6180-41bd-abce-1b919aa55807@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <87y6ziu4rm.fsf@gmail.com> <000c01c948e5$c6189420$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226949098 9512 80.91.229.12 (17 Nov 2008 19:11:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Richard Riley' , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 17 20:12:39 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L29WM-0007cT-4V for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:12:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40227 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L29VD-0000fI-Ko for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:11:15 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L29Uu-0000ez-IA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:10:56 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L29Ut-0000eQ-G8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:10:56 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=53379 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L29Ut-0000eN-D0 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:10:55 -0500 Original-Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]:33573) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L29Us-0005bo-T7 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:10:55 -0500 Original-Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 36so606044uga.17 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=pQILA7IqWgVTGzz4o45e987X6MqHPAAD+ST8hdnm/vY=; b=QC3EslkM9OaQ5H+EVVeImm0tw61T60h/pOUyqtPvt7qm3l4qeJ/RaC11cbrVOg4OdO gI+MCMxmLJf+fXBZerMCxkWvtOINciJebjRsZIe5PUXRrMQZmCk0r8oNP75dzkVFjL+e L9YJdZI2eThHktbrmxk5PcxNz6x4U6lPr0TEg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:from; b=YxLWRb2RhG7tW51nEPawRJTAcdTkNl4+PQLVWh1/Jg33tl3iUi2G+turyOI/mbTdeB Vgc3022R5C0ex+FFREetTt8P2lr33gdoCP6bL1HU5dEPxDIiI2Nr5vKhdjIIM8BtPUrI XHwtS/K9QRXYehcUYGgorM34R1binwhkogWPk= Original-Received: by 10.86.76.16 with SMTP id y16mr272673fga.65.1226949053485; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (e179198101.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.179.198.101]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e20sm4660329fga.1.2008.11.17.11.10.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:10:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <000c01c948e5$c6189420$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:53:26 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59872 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: >> > This is help-gnu-emacs. It's for getting help about using Emacs. >> >> But it should not be too disturbing to gauge Emacs user's views on >> certain issues. The nature of a Help group often means there are more >> new users and new users are often a catalyst for new and good >> ideas. Any half decent news reader features thread kill and keeping >> most in one or two threads is not disrupting. In addition discussion >> threads on functionality are often educational - many such threads >> have taught me new things about how and why things are in Emacs. > > You can do as you like, of course; I'm not moderating this mailing list. I'm > really just trying to help. > > The point is that such discussions are part of the _purpose_ of emacs-devel, and > help-gnu-emacs has a different purpose. If you want to influence Emacs > developers to make changes, emacs-devel is the place. To get changes made, there > will ultimately need to be a discussion at emacs-devel anyway - might as well > put it there to begin with. You seem to miss the point slightly. Many beginners do not, for obvious reasons, frequent emacs development. And it is beginners I was referring to. > > Can discussion of possible Emacs improvements be educational and helpful for > users, new and old? Yes, of course. Absolutely. Users who are interested in > reading or participating in such discussions can subscribe to emacs-devel. > Personally, I encourage that. In the world of Emacs _in particular_, there is no > clear separation between user and designer or implementor. Nearly all users tend to develop their own add ons and/or customisations. Looks at the far reaching Icicles for a good example :-; It would be a pretty poor sample if the the only new users you could discuss things with were the ones willing and able to subscribe to emacs development. Few users do. And having read some of the sniping there one can readily see why :-; > > Any and all users - new and old - who are interested in such discussion: Please > subscribe to emacs-devel, whether you just want to lurk or you want to > contribute. That will help improve both emacs-devel and Emacs. People, myself > included, sometimes complain that emacs-devel is not open enough or is too set > in its ways. The remedy for that is for more people to participate. If you want to discuss hard core stuff then yes I would concur. But gauging NEW users feeling about certain emacs defaults can hardly be done if there are no new users there. And you are an optimist if you feel that new users will be subscribing to emacs development where it can be slightly frightening for the non clued in new user IMO. While I realise you are not policing per se, I find it hard to agree with you that a discussion about some emacs basics here is a bad thing since the kind of people whose input would be most valuable are indeed here. Consider the "help" part of the group name as including helping people understand why certain things are as they are or even "help"ing someone come to a design suggestion on how to improve it.