From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 22:29:37 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87fs15kkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jhi3qx3.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13088"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Jim Porter , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 19 15:31:23 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r4ipW-0003Ja-F3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 15:31:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4ioo-0001El-Nw; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:30:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4ioW-0001DB-9R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:30:23 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.146]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4ioR-0006kZ-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:30:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1700404213; bh=H9jZqFC1s91I6A78mkD/i/2sGjf+bJSmeSibjGPnS/k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=KWmmH4MVLr67jb8alLf4AR3HkxcP07ub9JKYfUp75o/IHTYYIcReQdpOHVAbTKWJuIG+h8hTcE5HPHjyteUXVzyh31PTeC+Ww2aPiU68Uf3xk4GTcEwbqfq+J51O1BiV4d8Fi3uJ0iNtf7+4qcZuMYyio0CL9O0RRFb/emOQxAStWcRtoyDcnWPIDnA4NiHOsiH6rZ3P8ilKlAkalnsIT2EvTYsPM5sG8Q/HlWyUDtkZ0Z0YWx11yO27w1k+VsmiJwUVCHmslaRVcJ7qMfgrtRvZotktnFaltvFPvEL6vJTUMavQGwCf7l+xPXIVl+bvQ1pz5iolAWg601HGL1RbzA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1700404213; bh=JzsbIcIFZUf6FpXLWlIB9TTsuOjAkgkx0fpHdEjYfAn=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=nyhdW9AI40yBNvmdHRa+Kr37j3CyCNnPr4DsPNeCXZsJvCqqNOZ7mQyjktfNjvGI8Vj0QVO3GJGgeLqxfNMmTnBKaZyzBWA4bCK4Djc+3V4QNZGcYXVdOpwEhCcZYo2setxoJadf6gVFV5Ek4LtdTZ3oNKxY2mBV5fFEibYo+56iJdC7RVY6AwMTd+E7aYOZQSrTh0JvzAbq5pj2feyraDC0T/veaH8x/+jwn2Yeawg4d//S5mYzIgSWkD/0HOetlr5gBe7BJlI34HEwZHoqIzgqGUr84Y+oEgxFeoWMEDfR6UjE51EK/z4cMhYcsLyzd0LBssOCUVrSMn4+aVZieA== X-YMail-OSG: H7QRaKEVM1ngsseUU5BSbPqsTl3xkedwvzvpKXXsIQ3dWrshX1NbDBxBVtO.mEh L3tuGZaKk61n3DZyPKOJDxvkbU3PYB5w14c8gwQE_.6SpGtJzo8eNCjTgEgUZ_GR_.7_efBEbG3y YtRCgIsPNhMcrZnYf0xg.zdIa1ITw945GowCI_EvtlTm_x3rJrWi3H.NlhrVeF4yxMOLB_jYekeJ gN8LkrEDbefe1fMcnvQWijyRoJjHxJOQfZmSVWxBWp_fY6NdbmHqLaW2tt.jiezjIJXn7kHDi_7i nGtmyIWMM5cubXeSdU.w9qOwWduWjtelvB4M_efvRznRkmHDt505TUDPwKnr22hqdd_nwbTJrrpP TazioKpTTS.Wxeg_WoZ.rDYNKSqnYKG02dDPWYfslo2jRW0B01MLKBWY_IclI6VGppB6mUObpi7O ZncQYxtMFmaEAw8QW5uTdCMSREYniok_AAl8oSSklFrBi93chaIi06w9fsxhRHisRKHjdvTenZWS sKxmJNM87nfUvhCpyHCVZTarFh83bO79lwcvlzVc1Yu3hRrXnjh6ENt6kX_o1xjx6dEmANr_G4zH MdDDZ4gpLU3s5DdH8tP7V1BPhgo4QluW5iYeXR_zpaDEXWCbqaSHVH0JFmZ2envSKwwvyJxjGvDk V8oFStfSNYjM4K9isNEYy2ugCvykvUlIHSjwjT.f_VXrcDjIm14y1dK2rcTobqzHu_8FU71aaQtr erwLMguVDx42ZxsWkTPqDoY5VOEk_szeX0wGGCpUXTfbVLHQEU5r9z9zBHyfK7JYoJytw9AWuYqa neRNFmMFD83tdhjbp_SsVXXOC54pUaE1RufbLoTfm8 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 3dcc0adb-9ab4-444e-ab1c-d335aa40d2c3 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 14:30:13 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-wzlq9 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID fb4d340d403f90df80a7f79c7e538b58; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 14:30:10 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <874jhi3qx3.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:48:08 +0100") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.187.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312980 Archived-At: Michael Heerdegen writes: > "abstruse language" - "singular experience" ...(?) - sorry, are we > people having understood pcase in few minutes some kind of aliens, > compared to the "normal people"? Do we not count? Because we are not > loud and angry and outraged? With all due respect, your experience is very singular. Don't assume that I haven't canvassed other people's experiences, both on the Internet and off-line, methodically and anecdotally. My organization largely comprises C programmers who use Emacs for programming, as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Our two sites centrally provision their own Emacs configurations to all users, which incorporates a large corpus of code for editing and analyzing C programs in accord with local practice. Naturally, the existence of this corpus demands that programmers be charged with its upkeep, and as no position is set aside for such work, this responsibility devolves on individuals almost at random. This is a representative microcosm of the wider Emacs userbase, I think: for most are not hobbyists, or even employed programmers for whom programming is also an avocation, but men working for salaries, with bills to pay and families to... you can complete the rest of this trite description. And it is they whom I canvassed. I sent a poll to 34 individuals, all in some capacity involved in the maintenance of Emacs Lisp. Some of the questions asked were: - Have you previously read the documentation for pcase and cl-loop? - (If you haven't, read it now.) Is the documentation for the pcase feature easily grasped, from your perspective? - Is the documentation for cl-loop easily grasped, from your perspective? - Read the pcase form in completion-at-point at /usr/src/[...]/simple.el. Do you understand the variables that are bound, and the circumstances in which they are? - Read each cl-loop form in comp.el. Could you rewrite those you understand with other constructs? - Do you think liberal use of cl-lib and pcase hinders the understanding of Emacs's own source code? - Do you think Emacs Lisp, excluding cl-lib and pcase, is wanting in list iteration or destructing constructs? "Easily" refers also to whether you can learn the construct within an amount of time that does not impact your work, not just whether it is possible to learn with mechanical ease. 20 of the 34 answered yes to the first question, 5 of 34 to the second, 4 of 34 to the third, 12 of 34 to the fourth, 30 of 34 to the fifth, 30 to the sixth, and 6 to the seventh. So I'd say the results were a resounding vindication of all that I've maintained thus far. There were other items on the poll, but they related to our own policy for Emacs Lisp and are by the by. As regards experiences on the Internet, they are laid bare for all to see. In this thread, for starters. > Interesting would be to hear concrete arguments, but we heard nearly > none. "I'm angry" is not an argument. No one in this thread has been presenting indignation as an argument.