From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:46:46 -0700 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="96102"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: , excalamus@tutanota.com, Nathan Colinet , andreas.roehler@online.de, Richard Stallman To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 21:47:38 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYxLt-000Oqz-Rh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:47:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60116 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYxLs-0002IB-TV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 15:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47832) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYxLB-0000kW-Kf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 15:46:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1043.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1043]:34366) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYxLA-0003ge-9L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 15:46:53 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1043.google.com with SMTP id l73so1996910pjb.1 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:46:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O0bRIxFe/byJVMHuhcSidTj/jlKV7PLjAIs9EetbNUg=; b=VloGz7uG53mVpztJHGb4uT99jg+Ziz+J4MsKVTtkzWiCHYgH0geMmW0B2UybBWYcoc ovUQ/JiHiNgL8rtFopVZaHhZqMWC0+nNbbtW6FPZaVqEU0Mve48RJO3l1jvWVY/2/r2X 2JzVyX7F/WQCThx5gkbTudbv5sVLoJtulQtS61iAamYIG3/bD5fIh5U8M7d1G5q2OTFC WAaRPGjiDLzLBy2lJo5c/46PC88v/epkO4z/eVq/Gi3o2RM5WUxyUXJpZ3p4ybfx+r00 M07aIhdgidBNbLJoDsQzGAL/ifIMF+QqEJUskeVqZt0GiWt6C0ISoA204xu2wC/vEm/T +Yuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O0bRIxFe/byJVMHuhcSidTj/jlKV7PLjAIs9EetbNUg=; b=X10gcGsjAN6wiwU07kdCKq49sG/mY7S8ggUOIG/T1lzVVc49kz3ucNunf1FbkHfAP0 GJMAJWIGzHWTzphJcmWTKpQjMsfuEk/0u+a9gN/PXPNa3HLbPHO42pyTsNBEtl1W2Rhn htyJ5tAP1bxN0q/rBgR0HambYYTPGNxhJflONQNEb3PLPQasJN1es0QwKhMTlZ9qo+Yg Bownxg9H6Ne7Cuz/OhcW+OKobi9KL1CanrHXMoW0Vyv+iDkr0MCR3RsysjoNj+k7Nrui 2gcP1fNIb1t5NXyI+fHjTEazjmd7qA8niRQL6crol/BhKd++M8TK6tR9U5iqDZVk4fws NN3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532gvR6JBVKikjWNyPEvE/pwPgdftXdl811XSZhYUh41YU6lVdXk naKh6kOhdpf1H/aArD7xg1WPQw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy49rGc3BvxLcUdJNqho2XwKvJptDlCD0JvPIBDbB3ZPzBfPga4g3OlWn3twzk9tkIMzIWV3A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:82c6:: with SMTP id u6mr746819plz.146.1589399210007; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from raman-glaptop.localdomain (c-24-4-174-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.174.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 184sm301814pfy.144.2020.05.13.12.46.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 13 May 2020 12:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by raman-glaptop.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 13930) id CEEF4C21660; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:46:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> (Karl Fogel's message of "Wed, 13 May 2020 11:18:50 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1043; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1043.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250159 Archived-At: Karl Fogel writes: well said!> On 12 May 2020, excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions= ." wrote: >>May 11, 2020, 23:12 by rms@gnu.org: >>What are we competing for? I feel that while other threads are >>examining "missing features", it would be helpful to examine what GNU >>Emacs does offer. Not only in software features, but maybe also in >>philosophy, community, or tradition. >> >>What is it about GNU Emacs that makes this mailing list bustle with >>enthusiasm? Other editors use GPL, provide source code, have >>documentation, are customizable, and extendable. There's something >>in how GNU Emacs implements these that is different. I feel like >>there are taters to find if we dig a little. >> >>Is it because Emacs Lisp is unique to Emacs that Emacs teaches as >>well as documents? >>Is it that by being a pseudo-Lisp machine, Emacs puts users in the >>zone of proximal development? >>Is GNU Emacs the best embodiment of the GNU philosophy?=20 > > Sure, I'll take the bait: > > To the best of my knowledge, no other editing environment rewards sustain= ed user investment so well. > > With Emacs, if you keep investing -- i.e., acquiring knowledge and > skill by reading documentation, writing customizations, and exploring > others' customizations -- Emacs keeps rewarding you with a better and > better editing experience. The degree to which it does this seems > normal to many of us here, because we've been used to it for many > years. I think we sometimes fail to appreciate the degree to which > non-users, potential ("Emacs-curious") users, and even many actual new > users are *not* aware of it: they don't realize how enormous the > reward can be, and how broad its scope. > > This should probably affect how we think about promoting Emacs. Emacs > shouldn't necessarily try to attract everyone who needs to edit text > [1]. Many people who edit text nonetheless don't view text editing as > a primary activity worthy of investment. Those users are not good > candidates for Emacs. > > Emacs's best prospects are with the sorts of people who *do* see -- or > who can be persuaded to see -- text editing as worthy of investment. > There's a loose correlation in which good programmers tend to be those > sorts of people, because good programmers are usually willing to > invest in learning their tools in general. E.g., they'll learn their > text editor the same way they'll learn their debugger, their > programming framework, etc. But the set isn't limited to just > programmers. For example, scientists and other academics who edit > LaTeX documents are often good candidates for Emacs usage, because by > both temperament and life situation they are well-positioned to > understand how sustained investment in learning their editing > environment could pay off in the long term. > > So I suggest that GNU Emacs's raison d'=A8=BAtre is to be the text editor= that best rewards sustained user investment. > > I think Emacs actually does so right now, too, and that we just haven't a= lways communicated this fact clearly enough. > > Thus, instead of focusing on making Emacs easier for new users, it > would be better to focus on smoothing out discontinuities in Emacs' > investment-reward curve. The long-term health of Emacs as a project > will not come from a large number of lightly committed users who don't > appreciate what makes Emacs unique, but rather from a smaller number > of users for whom Emacs is important and irreplaceable. > > I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't improve the new-user experience > in Emacs, of course. We should make it as easy as possible for > newcomers *while still prioritizing invested users*. In user > experience design, there are frequently tradeoffs between making > things easy for newcomers and making them rewarding for experts. > Unfortunately, too often in design discussions, the new user > experience automatically wins out -- it's like some kind of magic card > that people play (even sometimes unconsciously) in UI/UX discussions. > For Emacs, this would be a mistake. Emacs's great strength will never > be in its new-user experience, and this is in some ways a necessary > consequence of Emacs being so great for highly invested long-term > users. > > This also suggests that the sorts of features that highly-invested > users tend to want -- for example, LSP-based features -- should be > more important to us than how square the menus are or what menu items > are shown in a default startup configuration. When we make decisions > that disappoint the core user base, we endanger the project much more > than when we make decisions that disappoint users (or potential users) > who weren't likely to become highly invested anyway. > > (The fact that Emacs promotes free software by being a good GPL'd > program is nice too, and is important to many of us, but it's not > unique to Emacs.) > > Best regards, > -Karl > --=20