From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312777 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg writes: And to make things concrete, take a look for example at some of the good uses of cl-loop within the emacs codebase itself, eg eww.el. Many of those idiomatic uses would I suspect be not as elegant (for some measure of elegance) without cl-loop > Sebasti=C3=A1n Mon=C3=ADa wrote: > >> 1. This kind of thread is more "scary" to potential Emacs >> contributors than any degree of complexity in cl-lib. >> I can confirm that. > > Very true! It is alienating to newcomers but also to > experienced people who have solved problem with cl-lib in > Emacs and saw no problem with that, on the contrary, they used > what they thought was the best way to do it. > >> 2. There's a lot of vague arguments for and against the >> library that, as an semi-outsider, read more like >> stylistic preference. Sometimes familiarity, or lack of >> it. Few objective reasons for/against. > > Again, true. In particular, what is lacking is whatever the > alternative would be. If cl-lib has increased the general > complexity, fine, maybe that is a problem to some. But surely > it is totally impractical to kick it out and for the vast > majority of the places where it is used we can't make the case > not using it will improve the quality of that code on > a case-by-case basis. > >> 3. Anyone interested in writing code for Emacs has to make >> the leap to a Lisp (elisp, in this case) which is already >> quite alien to a large population. For non-programmers, >> the problem is indistinguishable from learning any other >> language. Even for most people familiar with software >> development, cl-lib is the least of their difficulties. > > Very true, there is no huge leap from Elisp not including > cl-lib to Elisp including cl-lib. If used well, cl-lib will on > the contrary reduce the complexity and make the code cleaner. > And in very complicated cases, as we have seen with some > examples of `cl-loop', it is not clear in any way that > re-writing that in any other style would reduce complexity. > On the contrary `cl-loop' can be seen as a handy frame where > all that complexity, when encountered, is neatly organized > and accessible. > > At the very least, the people who used cl-lib and cl-loop and > every thing else cl- that they used, they didn't agree that > use was detrimental to anything, style or functionality. > And they solved their problems! In general, we should trust > them, and in particular, we should absolutely not alienate > them or anyone else for no reason other than style issues that > other people have on their contributions to Emacs. > > We shipped the library, people used it, that's the situation. --=20