From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: PT Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:52:33 +0100 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111244000 31601 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:53:20 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 15:53:20 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCfK8-0004ST-LI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:53:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCfaq-0003pn-BW for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:10:24 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tsicnews.teliasonera.com!aioe.org!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 111 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 9EGqVzZOPJF34TsvHVPUaQ.domitilla.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:51:00 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:129392 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24947 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24947 On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: PT >> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100 >> >> > C-h t >> >> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial a= re >> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards. > > ??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial? The current > version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons > why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings. True. I haven't read it for a while, but now I have. By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. It = is = pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by default.= >> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn n= ew >> keybindings for cursor movement. > > Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why > Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do. Okay, I admit I haven't read the tutorial for quite a while, so I take = this one back. >> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is. > > If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs. And= > btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys, > CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext. So a > convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs > keybindings. The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like SlickEdit,= = Eclipse or Visual Studio. Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I think = = the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these editors to= = make the initial transition easier. I'm not an emacs newbie anymore, so I don't really know what they don't = = like about Emacs. But they do have misgivings and most of them gives up = = after a few tries. Maybe if someone has a friend who has never used emac= s = he should ask him to give it a try, note down the complaints and share i= t = with us. > >> You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windo= ws >> for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f. > > Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a > UI. Okay, I try. I think the most frequent features should be reachable with a single key= = binding or with a multikey binding which involves at most two keys. For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode i= f = I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is on C-x= = C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which feature wil= l = he use more frequently? C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit = strange if I'm new to Emacs. I know these are traditional bindings, but they are strange nevertheless= . = At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You have to know a lo= t = of long key combinations to use it. Too complicated.") -- = Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/