From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:52:33 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <opsnv3lvttp52o26@home-ca12fabbc0> (raw)
In-Reply-To: mailman.4378.1111230698.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
>> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100
>>
>> > C-h t
>>
>> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are
>> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
>
> ??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial? The current
> version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons
> why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings.
True. I haven't read it for a while, but now I have.
By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. It is
pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by default.
>> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new
>> keybindings for cursor movement.
>
> Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why
> Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do.
Okay, I admit I haven't read the tutorial for quite a while, so I take
this one back.
>> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.
>
> If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs. And
> btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys,
> CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext. So a
> convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs
> keybindings.
The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like SlickEdit,
Eclipse or Visual Studio.
Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I think
the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these editors to
make the initial transition easier.
I'm not an emacs newbie anymore, so I don't really know what they don't
like about Emacs. But they do have misgivings and most of them gives up
after a few tries. Maybe if someone has a friend who has never used emacs
he should ask him to give it a try, note down the complaints and share it
with us.
>
>> You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows
>> for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f.
>
> Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a
> UI.
Okay, I try.
I think the most frequent features should be reachable with a single key
binding or with a multikey binding which involves at most two keys.
For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode if
I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is on C-x
C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which feature will
he use more frequently?
C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit
strange if I'm new to Emacs.
I know these are traditional bindings, but they are strange nevertheless.
At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You have to know a lot
of long key combinations to use it. Too complicated.")
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-03-19 14:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-03-18 21:12 Making Emacs more newbie friendly PT
2005-03-18 21:57 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19 5:40 ` PT
2005-03-19 7:57 ` rgb
2005-03-19 9:51 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:46 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 11:01 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 0:42 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 20:16 ` Miles Bader
[not found] ` <mailman.4427.1111265353.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 20:53 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4380.1111231068.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 14:23 ` PT
2005-03-19 15:08 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 10:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 14:34 ` nfreimann
2005-03-19 15:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 16:13 ` nfreimann
[not found] ` <mailman.4406.1111250911.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 19:12 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 19:35 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 21:00 ` Miles Bader
[not found] ` <mailman.4435.1111267700.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 22:42 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 12:42 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 14:56 ` PT
2005-03-19 15:37 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:45 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 18:07 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:15 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 18:24 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:34 ` David Kastrup
2005-04-09 18:01 ` Nathan Hess
[not found] ` <mailman.4378.1111230698.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 13:41 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:31 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:04 ` Lee Sau Dan
2005-03-20 12:33 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:33 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-21 7:39 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 10:07 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-21 11:27 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-22 11:25 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 11:54 ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 12:37 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:27 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 12:47 ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-21 18:30 ` Drew Adams
2005-03-19 15:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 17:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-03-20 12:42 ` Brian Elmegaard
[not found] ` <mailman.4399.1111247782.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 12:39 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 20:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4504.1111351877.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 21:05 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21 8:11 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 19:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4626.1111436194.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-22 11:33 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:52 ` PT [this message]
2005-03-19 15:14 ` David Hansen
2005-03-19 15:33 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:00 ` PT
2005-03-19 16:22 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:57 ` PT
2005-03-19 17:16 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:55 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:03 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:52 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:44 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 21:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-22 11:46 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-22 13:09 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-23 7:29 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 8:17 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:01 ` PT
2005-03-19 20:45 ` Miles Bader
2005-03-20 17:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 18:05 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 18:15 ` PT
2005-03-20 17:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 23:16 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 11:49 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 13:06 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-19 16:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 18:16 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 23:34 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 0:45 ` David Kastrup
[not found] ` <mailman.4404.1111249572.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 11:51 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 16:31 ` ken
[not found] ` <mailman.4485.1111338015.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 23:35 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-21 4:44 ` Sean Richards
2005-03-21 11:00 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22 20:33 ` Sean Richards
2005-03-19 15:45 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19 15:54 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4413.1111254615.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 23:33 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 4:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-20 9:07 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-20 11:30 ` nfreimann
2005-03-20 12:16 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
[not found] ` <mailman.4474.1111322832.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 18:04 ` Joe Bush
2005-03-21 8:23 ` Brian Elmegaard
[not found] ` <mailman.4470.1111319220.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 13:01 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-20 17:37 ` David Kastrup
[not found] ` <mailman.4443.1111294657.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 15:29 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 15:58 ` Joe Corneli
[not found] ` <mailman.4479.1111335526.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 20:33 ` Jochen Küpper
2005-03-20 23:50 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-20 12:59 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:45 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21 8:19 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:42 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 19:27 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 6:55 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-18 22:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2005-03-19 17:17 ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-19 18:10 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22 1:59 ` Cristian Gutierrez
2005-03-21 9:56 ` Mathias Dahl
2005-03-21 19:23 ` Peter K. Lee
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-03-21 12:53 nfreimann
2005-03-21 15:22 ` Joe Corneli
[not found] <mailman.4566.1111411378.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-21 13:21 ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 21:44 ` Miles Bader
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