From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tom Tromey Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:12:10 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20071230122217.3CA84830B9A@snark.thyrsus.com> <20071231130712.GB8641@thyrsus.com> <20071231214108.GD26639@thyrsus.com> <87fxxi1k4k.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87odc5vzto.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Reply-To: Tom Tromey NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199238116 6453 80.91.229.12 (2 Jan 2008 01:41:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 01:41:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, esr@snark.thyrsus.com, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 02 02:42:15 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J9scY-00030E-R9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:42:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9scC-0001En-Uu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:41:53 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9sc9-0001BY-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:41:49 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9sc8-0001BJ-IV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:41:48 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9sc8-0001BG-CS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:41:48 -0500 Original-Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([66.187.233.31]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J9sc1-00021r-GG; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:41:41 -0500 Original-Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m021fejn009037; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:41:40 -0500 Original-Received: from pobox.corp.redhat.com (pobox.corp.redhat.com [10.11.255.20]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m021fdBk005405; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:41:39 -0500 Original-Received: from opsy.redhat.com (ton.yyz.redhat.com [10.15.16.15]) by pobox.corp.redhat.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m021fddP002403; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:41:39 -0500 Original-Received: by opsy.redhat.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9C8C0508021; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 18:12:10 -0700 (MST) X-Attribution: Tom In-Reply-To: <87odc5vzto.fsf@catnip.gol.com> (Miles Bader's message of "Wed\, 02 Jan 2008 09\:25\:07 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.990 (gnu/linux) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.58 on 172.16.52.254 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85833 Archived-At: >>>>> "Miles" == Miles Bader writes: Miles> I've actually used Eclipse a lot for Java programming, and it has many Miles> nice features (many of which you list). However, it's definitely a Miles> mixed bag -- the UI is _so_ baroque and often confusing, and in general Miles> so "rigid" (not to mention slowwwwww) that often I found myself wishing Miles> for Emacs again. A mixed bag. Yeah. For me the tradeoffs were compelling enough to switch -- it made me notably more efficient. But it is true you need a much more powerful machine to run Eclipse. Remember the good old days when people made jokes about Emacs' size? Eclipse uses much more memory. And, if you're used to Emacs' high level of integration and ease of hackability, it takes some getting used to. I think if you are come from a more GUI-ish world, Eclipse is only mildly sucky -- from my GUI-using friends I hear some complaints but mostly around the edges. Miles> My wish is that Emacs gets "Emacsy" versions of Eclipse's best features, Miles> not that Emacs becomes anything like Eclipse (which has a truly awful Miles> user interface...). I'm in complete agreement. And much of it, like java compiler stuff, should not be done in Emacs itself, IMO. Tom