From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: joakim@verona.se Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between ibuffer and dired Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:56:23 +0200 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278046598 13236 80.91.229.12 (2 Jul 2010 04:56:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 04:56:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Emacs-Devel devel' , 'Lennart Borgman' , 'Deniz Dogan' To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 02 06:56:36 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUYIm-00083u-9f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:56:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39190 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OUYIl-00068x-93 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:56:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48891 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OUYIe-00068s-Ic for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:56:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUYId-0000P2-CJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:56:28 -0400 Original-Received: from iwfs.imcode.com ([82.115.149.64]:48580 helo=gate.verona.se) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUYId-0000Og-1K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:56:27 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:1005@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gate.verona.se (8.13.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id o624uMG7019177; Fri, 2 Jul 2010 06:56:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:47:30 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:126676 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: >> > I would like that very much. I'm just afraid that both modes are so >> > old that people have gotten very used to the keymaps by now and will >> > be very reluctant to relearn them if we change them now. >> >> Just prepare to make it an option if old users complain. I would guess >> that very many are annoyed by the difference today. > > If you really must do this kind of thing, please keep it to a minimum. And > please propose and discuss each key change on its own merits. Thats why I suggested a separate branch. All the changes could then be tried in the branch withouth inconveniencing users. In the end it would be neat with some skinning facility, and keymaps could be part of that. I dont think you could please all users. The kind of skin to use could then be chosen on install. I also dont like the argument that a specific keymap should be kept because its been like that forever. I've been using Emacs since 1988 and I would still much prefer good consistent keymaps to inconsistent ones. > And remember that Dired is _much_ older - Ibuffer is only a few years old > (~2007, IIUC). Attempts to move toward consistency here should, other things > being equal, move toward the Dired bindings, not those of Ibuffer. > > To the extent that consistency here is important, Ibuffer should have dealt with > it at the time it was created. And maybe it did: Perhaps the designers of > Ibuffer had good reasons for any inconsistencies they introduced between Ibuffer > and Dired. (That does not necessarily mean they were right.) To the extent > that any such inconsistencies were simply oversights, they can be considered > Ibuffer bugs. > > Keep in mind too that it is not simply the habits of users that will be > affected. 3rd-party libraries are likely to have adopted the bindings of one or > the other of these libraries, for consistency with it (and hence with user > habits). > > For example, Bookmark+ is consistent with Dired's bindings (e.g. wrt marking and > removing marks and flags). Dired has been present since Day One; it has many, > many users; and it has likely influenced a good deal of non-core code by now. > Do not gratuitously change its bindings. > > Finally, remember that there can be good reasons for inconsistency between > different parts of a system. In particular, it can be the case that consistency > (or optimization or convenience or some other quality) _within_ a part calls for > inconsistency _between_ parts. > > For example, the key bindings within Ibuffer need to work together and fit the > logic and use of Ibuffer features, and that consideration could argue in favor > of differences with Dired. (Just hypothetical - I know little about Ibuffer > itself.) > > In sum: > > * Treat proposed changes on a case-by-case basis, discussing them. > * Respect Dired. Respect time. Respect user numbers. > * Consider consistency wrt its scope. And remember that it is not the only > important quality. > -- Joakim Verona