From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Cloos Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX. Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:25:57 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83pr371rl2.fsf@gnu.org> <873a03pmgn.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <20100314093329.GA1362@muc.de> <83iq8y1yrq.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268598892 11994 80.91.229.12 (14 Mar 2010 20:34:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 14 21:34:44 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NquWH-00037b-Ff for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:34:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53271 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NquWG-00010m-GT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:34:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NquWB-00010g-Lj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:34:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=42454 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NquW7-00010W-Rf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:34:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NquW5-0004ml-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:34:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eagle.jhcloos.com ([207.210.242.212]:44643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NquVz-0004lw-US; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:34:24 -0400 Original-Received: by eagle.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 814B0401CE; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:33:58 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=eagle; t=1268598862; bh=SIn4gCbnl3+Xop16Zmj37ZNH1U1duTOCK4O3KTvfCQE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wO7vDLMAioRWTqYzaowhYWsdb30Aor7UIG7VV5qitirSxxiO466oj3GBhKVg/Vw+A gTzrHOLPaZf2SVW/7fKO8KfOG0/5JOuLyJOgbMAMI87E8CMnTGhG7PzDIvwnF9flxs RlrQenTHT0R52x+yYZF5jGT773kZ3nyLidwkqvhM= Original-Received: by lugabout.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9F1AFA00DB; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:26:22 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83iq8y1yrq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:36:25 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.1.90 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAAf8/9hAAAABHNCSVQICAgIfAhkiAAAAI1J REFUOE+lU9ESgCAIg64P1y+ngUdxhl5H8wFbbM0OmUiEhKkCYaZThXCo6KE5sCbA1DDX3genvO4d eBQgEMaM5qy6uWk4SfBYfdu9jvBN9nSVDOKRtwb+I3epboOsOX5pZbJNsBJFvmQQ05YMfieIBnYX FK2N6dOawd97r/e8RjkTLzmMsiVgrAoEugtviCM3v2WzjgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== Copyright: Copyright 2009 James Cloos OpenPGP: ED7DAEA6; url=http://jhcloos.com/public_key/0xED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Original-Lines: 70 X-Hashcash: 1:30:100314:eliz@gnu.org::EY/lzlGNSyRYCQyq:000055vA4 X-Hashcash: 1:30:100314:emacs-devel@gnu.org::+jFWprYg3h2eas+L:000000000000000000000000000000000000000004wSTF X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:121969 Archived-At: >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app >> like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as compared >> to the size of the visible window. EZ> Do you really need this indication so often as to make this a serious EZ> argument? Yes, I do. Almost every day in Gnus *Aritcle* buffers; regularly when editing outouting mail, source code, TeX, html and the like. It is fast, easy, does not require re-focusing my eyes. It just works. And it is a useful metric for how long-winded I missive might be, how far point (assuming it is currently displayed) is from some other section of code, and whether the file is getting long enough that it ought to be split. I also use the bar in 'zilla that way, although it isn't quite as good as Emacs' and Xaw3d's implementations. (In Seamonkey keyboard control works almost as well as in Emacs, so I don't need its bar for scrolling either. Firfox, however, broke keyboard control; only there and in links' graphic mode do I regularly need to use the bar to scroll.) EZ> Guess what? most apps I've seen don't change their scroll bar location EZ> no matter which directionality is the prevailing one in the current EZ> locale. I'm not surprised that they don't, but if that means they always have the bar on the right, then that benefits the r2l users more than it benefits l2r users like myself. EZ> And what is ``r2l locale'', anyway? Shorthand for users who do something like LANG=ar_XX.UTF-8, LANG=fa_XX.utf8 or LANG=he_XX.utf8, to pick some semi-random examples (with XX in place of any majuscule, 2-letter country code) and thus get all of their UI elements in r2l. As an example, I've seen screenshots where the menus started on the right instread of the left. By mentioning that possibility, I was simply trying to be inclusionist rather than exclusionist. EZ> Let's say I have on the same frame one buffer with prose in R2L EZ> script, and another buffer with a C or Lisp source -- do you want EZ> Emacs to display the scroll bar for each buffer on different sides? EZ> in the same frame? I wouldn't. But my point, given that I was arguing that the bar should be closer to the text, was that if all of the text a user tends to edit is tied to the right margin rather than to the left margin, then their scrollbar location preferences may also be the opposite of mine, even if their usage pattern and needs are otherwise the same. (I hope that explains the point well enough.) What I would want, in the case you decribe above, is to keep the bar on the left, but have the right margin of the r2l text positioned close enought to the left margin of the buffer, that the text would be in about the same part of the screen as if it were l2r text. (I got the impression that fill-column might end up overloaded for that function from one of the emacs-bidi threads; I am very much in favour of that or something like that.) I can see that this buffer is now more than twice as tall as the frame; seems like a good point to stop writing. ;) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6