From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changing the default for `send-mail-function' Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:08:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1309094072 14596 80.91.229.12 (26 Jun 2011 13:14:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:14:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 26 15:14:28 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QapAR-0006TT-VY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:14:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51002 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QapAQ-0005Oq-VM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38493) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QapA7-0005ON-Oc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QapA5-0002cZ-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:07 -0400 Original-Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:35203) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QapA4-0002cK-W2; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:05 -0400 Original-Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qap9x-0000EK-3H; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:13:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 26 Jun 2011 08:50:24 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAMFBMVEX+/v4DBASxsbLc3NwD AwMBAQEqKixUU1X29vcICAoCAgQAAAL///8BAQJ+fn8CAgJRZwaiAAABXUlEQVQ4jaXQv0vDQBQH 8IJrl9jWGhe1LhbEVZAsB8E1SzOfmyAdWgv1B7oWhCBWpVaFDh1d/AuE0ILccGTTQQgOigqWQCEZ 5VkjNe3l3iC+5Y773Pfe4xIcqcQ/wFlC4NBCYIUvyMFjF5oUthy3J4WKc13KhX2SQoIdbGet4flo D/7hlmRP5aufD5YMnKvbtrQ5P3JTcmCX03Lgm81ob4/CXkoKE2/17KIEWHkGQH2PQ+0GTPNxzYrB yxOFoEB6InTPAsiYQIoiOACuCVD4nXgIdwEd9DDJpJhY9QEoEF3VhEQ5Y1Lf8KFfSY5Bpx7QwAAw fLWlMS2C2n0/ndYJKIqiNqrFCPKzAAGAbqQ3PM8bScz731NRMvUsjFvzB/dpgexwAdjyrqLr+rk1 BnZIudxrY46LiZ9vaXEEThDonGLQxGA9XOwYdPeRBMOge4xBEQHbQmCsQkhigCb+BF9Xn17F3vXd 6AAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Pet Shop Boys's _The Most Incredible Thing (1)_: "The Clock 4-5-6" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110626:eliz@gnu.org::N2GDcfbLCSCMOy6s:00000MLQR X-Hashcash: 1:23:110626:emacs-devel@gnu.org::Qm67ukR0kSyxAWMS:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000SIg9 X-MailScanner-ID: 1Qap9x-0000EK-3H MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1309698837.22405@uo57FYgjiaKcGThIztDw9A X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:140988 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Emacs until now didn't require the user to provide the server address. > At least on Windows, the system mailer (Outlook or whatever) is > normally already configured, and many times by a person other than the > one who invoked Emacs. The latter might not know the address or the > credentials, or both. We don't want that to get in the way of an > Emacs user who wants to report a bug, for example. It's the same situation on Linux, really. Today, if you want to send email on Linux, you will have configured exim to do the right thing. (Or it will be configured by somebody else for you.) So the situation is the same on Linux and Windows: People today necessarily have configured their mail setup, or had it configured for them. The problem that switching the default from `sendmail-send-it' (on Linux) and `mailclient-send-it' (on Windows) is to make Emacs work as a mail client out of the box. If you install Ubuntu on a new machine, it will install exim, but leave exim in local delivery mode only by default. If you then send email from your brand new fresly installed Emacs, it will fail silently. It will call `sendmail-send-it', and exim will take it, and deliver a bounce locally. Which probably won't be seen by the user. I think that's pretty unacceptable behaviour. On a freshly installed Windows, the situation is similar, but at least it won't fail silently. `mailclient-send-it' will send the message, which will then open Outlook (or something), which then won't be able to send the message. But at least it'll tell you so. I still think it's pretty yucky mail behaviour, and one that no other common mail clients will emulate. Defaulting to `smtpmail-send-it' will make Emacs behave exactly like all other mail clients: It'll ask you for the outgoing server name. If you give it the wrong name, or you don't know it, you will get a proper error message saying what the problem is exactly. While this default change will annoy 95% of the current users (since they have to type the SMTP server name once (and possible credentials if the SMTP server requires them)), it'll make Emacs mail work for new users reliably. However, I think there's a third possibility here, beyond keeping the current defaults and "hard-swapping" them. :-) What about if we default to `query-user', and then the first time you use it, it'll ask "Use the built-in SMTP support, or use {the Windows mailer,exim} to send the mail?", and then save the response. (It probably needs to top up a help buffer explaining the choices in more detail, though.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/