Making Emacs more newbie friendly

Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it  
really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for  
newbies to get acquainted with it.

I don't even recommend emacs anymore when someone asks me for a good  
editor, because they always complain about emacs being too foreign,  
non-standard, etc.

This newbie mode would be a simple command which when activated would  
change default emacs settings, keybindings to as similar to a more usual  
editor as possible.

This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new  
users:

	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.

Menus should be activated with Alt+<key>, e.g. Alt-F for File menu. I know  
that Alt-F (Meta-F) is forward word, but I don't think a newbie would miss  
it too much. pc-selection-mode should be the default, so that he can move  
around with arrows + ctrl, shift, etc.

I know there could be a problem with these bindings if emacs is run in a  
terminal, but newbies rarely do that, a graphical environment is more  
common nowadays.

Useful general settings should be turned on by default. column numbers,  
global font lock, etc.

So I'd like a single command which I could put into a newbies .emacs file:

	(newbie-mode)

and this would set everything, so that a new user can perform any simple  
editing operation using only the knowledge he brought from other  
systems/editors. And when he sees that emacs is not the editor from hell  
then he might be more interested to learn more about it.

Anyone thinks it's a good idea?

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Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> newbies to get acquainted with it.

C-h t 



> I don't even recommend emacs anymore when someone asks me for a good
> editor, because they always complain about emacs being too foreign,
> non-standard, etc.
> 
> This newbie mode would be a simple command which when activated would
> change default emacs settings, keybindings to as similar to a more
> usual  editor as possible.

M-x viper RET

 
> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new
> users:
> 
> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.

Where did you find these keybindings?  I've never seen them!  You call
them Familiar???
 

> Menus should be activated with Alt+<key>, e.g. Alt-F for File menu. I
> know  that Alt-F (Meta-F) is forward word, but I don't think a newbie
> would miss  it too much. pc-selection-mode should be the default, so
> that he can move  around with arrows + ctrl, shift, etc.
> 
> I know there could be a problem with these bindings if emacs is run in
> a  terminal, but newbies rarely do that, a graphical environment is
> more  common nowadays.
> 
> Useful general settings should be turned on by default. column
> numbers,  global font lock, etc.
> 
> So I'd like a single command which I could put into a newbies .emacs file:
> 
> 	(newbie-mode)
> 
> and this would set everything, so that a new user can perform any
> simple  editing operation using only the knowledge he brought from
> other  systems/editors. And when he sees that emacs is not the editor
> from hell  then he might be more interested to learn more about it.
> 
> Anyone thinks it's a good idea?

Better put:

alias newbie-emacs=nano # or pico

in your ~/.bashrc


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Nobody can fix the economy.  Nobody can be trusted with their finger
on the button.  Nobody's perfect.  VOTE FOR NOBODY.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 18.03.2005 um 22:12 schrieb PT:

> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new 
> users:
>
> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.

F1 for help is a standard in the MS world that infiltrates the free 
world too -- that's OK! The others might have existed in some DOS 
editor ...

GNU Emacs has a few newbie modes: its emulations of other editors, 
probably known to the new user. Then some days spent in C-h t ... And 
there are simple Emacs clones: nano, pico, the command or text editing 
modes in bash or Mac OS X ...

--
Greetings

   Pete

"Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?"
                                                    - Tom Stoppard

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On 18 Mar 2005 22:57:17 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>  
wrote:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
>> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
>> newbies to get acquainted with it.
>
> C-h t

That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are  
leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.

I have some colleagues using VIM and Emacs and none of them use the  
standard keys for movement, all of them use the arrow keys. I've been  
using emacs for 6+ years, customized it inside out, wrote minor modes for  
it and yet I too use the arrow keys, not M-f and M-b and such.

I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new  
keybindings for cursor movement.

>> I don't even recommend emacs anymore when someone asks me for a good
>> editor, because they always complain about emacs being too foreign,
>> non-standard, etc.
>>
>> This newbie mode would be a simple command which when activated would
>> change default emacs settings, keybindings to as similar to a more
>> usual  editor as possible.
>
> M-x viper RET

VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.

>> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new
>> users:
>>
>> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.
>
> Where did you find these keybindings?  I've never seen them!  You call
> them Familiar???

You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows  
for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f.

>
> Better put:
>
> alias newbie-emacs=nano # or pico
>
> in your ~/.bashrc

Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn it.  
The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the first time,  
so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get to know it  
better.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[rgb]

> > Better put:
> >
> > alias newbie-emacs=nano # or pico
> >
> > in your ~/.bashrc
>
> Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn
it.
> The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the first
time,
> so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get to know it

> better.
>
Here here!
Most of my colleagues say wow how do I get that program.
When I hand them a CD and say here you go they dash off immediately.
Next time I see them they're like ... it's too complicated, I don't
have time to learn all that...
It isn't really.  But the tutorial only teaches the `hard way' and
the defaults have the cool stuff turned off so you must learn all
about customizing and what's available and how to turn each feature
on before your really using it.  Even transient-mark-mode is off by
default.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

"rgb" <rbielaws@i1.net> writes:

> It isn't really.  But the tutorial only teaches the `hard way' and
> the defaults have the cool stuff turned off so you must learn all
> about customizing and what's available and how to turn each feature
> on before your really using it.  Even transient-mark-mode is off by
> default.

Transient mark mode is an abomination.  It really needed to be
replaced by the implementation of temporary transient mark mode (which
also is activated by dragging the mouse) in Emacs 22.

Have you tried CVS Emacs recently?  There definitely is no reason to
use transient-mark mode permanently any more.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Steinar Børmer]

David Kastrup wrote:

| Transient mark mode is an abomination.  It really needed to be
| replaced by the implementation of temporary transient mark mode (which
| also is activated by dragging the mouse) in Emacs 22.
|
| Have you tried CVS Emacs recently?  There definitely is no reason to
| use transient-mark mode permanently any more.

I don't quite see how you can say that.  Temporary transient mark mode
has a point, yes, but I would rather have it enabled permanently rather
than needing a keybinding each time I need it.  (I never mark a region
with the mouse).

The problem for me is that without transient mark mode, I often run into
situations where I mark the "wrong" region, and then I have to go back
and do it all over again.  Then I'd have to press `C-SPC C-SPC' before
marking once more.

Would you care to elaborate on this?

-- 
SB

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100
> 
> > C-h t
> 
> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are  
> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.

??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial?  The current
version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons
why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings.  (One reason it
does not mention -- that the arrow keys should be known to everyone --
is so obvious that I'd expect each user to not expect these keys to be
mentioned in the tutorial.)

If you think the tutorial text should be changed somehow to be more
friendly to newbies, please suggest specific changes to it (but be
sure to read the current version first!), and send your suggestions to
emacs-devel@gnu.org.  TIA.

> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new  
> keybindings for cursor movement.

Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why
Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do.

> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.

If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs.  And
btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys,
CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext.  So a
convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs
keybindings.

> >> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.
> >
> > Where did you find these keybindings?  I've never seen them!  You call
> > them Familiar???
> 
> You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows  
> for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f.

Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a
UI.  So please give us a list of Windows programs that use those F1-F3
bindings, which make them ``familiar to anyone on Windows''.  Emacs
does support "F1 for help", as you probably should have known, so only
F2, F3, and whatever hides under ``etc.'' are the issue.

> The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the first time,  
> so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get to know it  
> better.

That's a goal that Emacs developers will always applaud.  But please
give specific suggestions, and please post them to
emacs-devel@gnu.org, since most Emacs developers don't read this
forum.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "rgb" <rbielaws@i1.net>
> Date: 18 Mar 2005 23:57:23 -0800
> 
> the defaults have the cool stuff turned off

Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users
find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time someone
suggests them to be turned on by default.

> so you must learn all about customizing and what's available and how
> to turn each feature on before your really using it.

Yes, an Emacs user needs to know how to customize it.  But it's not
true that they must learn about customizations to turn the frequently
wanted features on.  All you need to do is click on the menu bar and
select "Options".  I'd bet it takes a newbie no longer than 2 seconds
to find that menu-bar item.

> Even transient-mark-mode is off by default.

But it's under "Options".  Pufff! not an issue ;-)

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

steinab@ifi.uio.no (Steinar Børmer) writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
> | Transient mark mode is an abomination.  It really needed to be
> | replaced by the implementation of temporary transient mark mode
> | (which also is activated by dragging the mouse) in Emacs 22.
> |
> | Have you tried CVS Emacs recently?  There definitely is no reason
> | to use transient-mark mode permanently any more.
>
> I don't quite see how you can say that.  Temporary transient mark
> mode has a point, yes, but I would rather have it enabled
> permanently rather than needing a keybinding each time I need it.
> (I never mark a region with the mouse).

With transient-mark-mode, the region tends to be marked when it annoys
me, and unmarked when I would need it.

> The problem for me is that without transient mark mode, I often run
> into situations where I mark the "wrong" region, and then I have to
> go back and do it all over again.  Then I'd have to press `C-SPC
> C-SPC' before marking once more.

An "active region" is more than just the area between point and an
active mark.  For things like cut&paste, it amounts to pretty much the
same, but it also affects search&replace operation and, say, in AUCTeX
what happens if you use the keybindings for insertion environments and
font selection commands (which go _around_ the active region).

> Would you care to elaborate on this?

You don't need to "go back and do it all over again".  Just use
C-u C-x C-x to activate or reactivate an existing region.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn
> it.  The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the
> first time, so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get
> to know it better.

at some point everyone gives up (perhaps in disgust) on something,
instead of getting to know it better.  for example, you do not use M-f
and M-b, i do not use the menu- tool- or speed-bar, etc.  the tricky
question is how to guide newbies w/o poisoning them w/ prejudice.  a lot
of it depends on the attitude of the newbie w/ respect to newbiehood.

thi

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a

Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for horizontal
scroll, [2] sizeable and cascadable windows instead of buffers inside
the same frame, [3] heavy extension of the icon toolbars and [4]
distinction between 'open' and 'new' file.

Keys which would make emacs more "normal":
M-F4 for exiting would be one.
C-TAB for frame/window/buffer (depending on changes according to [2])
switching.

regards,

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:17 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users
> find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time someone
> suggests them to be turned on by default.

And this is the wrong point of view. I'm a veteran user. I can turn  
anything off I don't like, but a newbie cannot turn the useful things on  
until he gets to know emacs better. The problem is they usually give up  
(at least the ones I met), because they miss the convenience features!

I support turning every useful feature on by default. I don't really see  
how a veteran user can find anything annoying. I can put some lines into  
my emacs and I won't see that thing ever again.

Newbies first! Veterans can fix anything they don't like.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a
>
> Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for horizontal
> scroll,

C-x <  and C-x >

> [2] sizeable and cascadable windows instead of buffers inside the
> same frame,

Windows _are_ sizable, and what is displayed _is_ a window, not a
buffer (you can have buffers that are not displayed, or buffers
displyed in several windows at once).  Drag an unused spot of any
modeline in a split frame (C-x 2) up and down or use C-x ^ to enlarge.
If you split windows vertically (with C-x 3), drag the point in the
mode line under the scrollbar left and right.

> [3] heavy extension of the icon toolbars and [4] distinction between
> 'open' and 'new' file.

The problems with "new" (basically nameless buffers) are:

a) There is no associated mode.  Emacs' most important property is
that it has editing modes and syntax highlighting and keybindings for
most tasks readily available.  It will almost always be easier to
specify a file name to work with than the name of an Emacs mode.

b) There is no associated file name.  When exiting and saving
automatically (like the desktop package does), Emacs has no place to
put the file.

c) There is no associated autosave file.  If you crash after two hours
of work, your work will get lost.

d) Lots of modes offer running/compiling/testing your program using
external tools that need accessible files.

In short: I don't see how Emacs can benefit from that distinction.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[nfreimann]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs.  And
>  
>

Eli, what he wants to tell us is, that CUA bindings and GUI dialogs are 
common today, and not proprietary key bindings and dialogs a la mini 
buffer or something.

cvs gtk2 emacs has already brougth emacs very close to a up-to-date 
application. There is still a lot work to do, nevertheles a big thank 
you to all the great developers!

-NF

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
>> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100
>>
>> > C-h t
>>
>> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are
>> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
>
> ??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial?  The current
> version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons
> why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings.

True. I haven't read it for a while, but now I have.

By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. It is  
pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by default.

>> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new
>> keybindings for cursor movement.
>
> Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why
> Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do.

Okay, I admit I haven't read the tutorial for quite a while, so I take  
this one back.

>> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.
>
> If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs.  And
> btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys,
> CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext.  So a
> convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs
> keybindings.

The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like SlickEdit,  
Eclipse or Visual Studio.
Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I think  
the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these editors to  
make the initial transition easier.

I'm not an emacs newbie anymore, so I don't really know what they don't  
like about Emacs. But they do have misgivings and most of them gives up  
after a few tries. Maybe if someone has a friend who has never used emacs  
he should ask him to give it a try, note down the complaints and share it  
with us.

>
>> You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows
>> for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f.
>
> Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a
> UI.

Okay, I try.

I think the most frequent features should be reachable with a single key  
binding or with a multikey binding which involves at most two keys.

For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode if  
I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is on C-x  
C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which feature will  
he use more frequently?

C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit  
strange if I'm new to Emacs.

I know these are traditional bindings, but they are strange nevertheless.  
At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You have to know a lot  
of long key combinations to use it. Too complicated.")


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:42:38 +0100, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> wrote:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn
>> it.  The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the
>> first time, so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get
>> to know it better.
>
> at some point everyone gives up (perhaps in disgust) on something,
> instead of getting to know it better.

Exactly. My heretic idea is to rethink the whole Emacs interface  
(defaults, keybindings). Make the default Emacs very similary to modern  
CUA-based applications. Give less reason for the newbies to give up in  
disgust.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:17 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users
>> find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time
>> someone suggests them to be turned on by default.
>
> And this is the wrong point of view. I'm a veteran user. I can turn
> anything off I don't like, but a newbie cannot turn the useful
> things on until he gets to know emacs better. The problem is they
> usually give up (at least the ones I met), because they miss the
> convenience features!
>
> I support turning every useful feature on by default. I don't really
>see how a veteran user can find anything annoying. I can put some
>lines into my emacs and I won't see that thing ever again.
>
> Newbies first! Veterans can fix anything they don't like.

And that is the wrong point of view.  If ``cool stuff'' is turned off
because the veteran users find it so annoying, the solution is not to
turn it on by default before it gets changed in a way that stops the
annoyance.

We don't need dancing paperclips, no thanks.  But that does not mean
that we don't need a help system at all.  Indeed, Emacs gives out
messages pointing out keybindings and stuff (and marks menus with
them).  But it does that in a way that does not hamper productivity.

If you take a look at the Emacs developer list, you will frequently
find long fights going on about features.  Basically, for something to
be enabled by default, it needs to have a history of working, of not
causing massive resource problems, of not blocking previously working
editing practices without an obvious escape route and so on.

And often, after long fights and arguments, the proponents then come
up with a solution that is so compelling that it gets adopted in
pretty unanimous agreement.

And that is a much more healthy process than the "let's throw
everything that's frilly on at once".  Yes, there are projects that
adopt that strategy, and people tend to fawn on them for a few months,
then drop them again.  For example, take the toolbar.  The XEmacs
toolbar is one of those distinguishing things that make me say "I
don't want to use that, it is so repulsive".  I can stand the current
Emacs toolbar, in contrast, for longer amounts of time without
aesthetic problems.  With the singular exception of Gnus, the icons of
which are absolutely garish.  Probably because they have been designed
to fit with XEmacs.

There are other things that are getting worked out, like enabling
auto-compression-mode and auto-image-mode: there are some cases where
using them causes inappropriate effects, and the trend in Emacs
development is not to integrate such stuff before the problems are
under control.

And this "don't enable it until it has a quality that makes it
unannoying even when you have only marginal use for it" strategy makes
for more solid results in the long run.

There is no sense in encouraging integrating half-baked stuff by
popular demand until nobody can do serious work without half a dozen
extensions interfering with productivity.  Emacs contains hundreds of
features that will be at most marginally interesting to most users.
If you have to configure a few dozen off before Emacs starts becoming
useful for productive work, you might as well forget about
proselytizing.

Font locking now gets in the vicinity where one can consider making
the default on.  Previously, it would make Emacs stall on large files,
not an acceptable default for serious work.  At the moment where using
it becomes more or less just a matter of taste instead of technical
necessity, and when the defaults are reasonably tasteful to appeal to
a larger audience even when exposed for longer amounts of time to it,
then the time has come to switch it on by default.  I'll switch it off
immediately again, but if I do so, it should only be because I prefer
pure black-on-white for everything as a matter of personal taste, not
because it impedes Emacs operation and human interaction.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:52:33 +0100 PT wrote:

> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. It is
> pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by default.

This is no reason to remove the superior emacs key bindings.

There is pretty much crap standard in "modern" systems, like
dancing paperclips, automatic distribution of viruses and spam,
unreadable mail attachments, ...

David

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like
> SlickEdit,  Eclipse or Visual Studio.

Strange concept of a "newbie" here.

> Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I
> think the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these
> editors to make the initial transition easier.

Compared to a Kazoo, a violin is very strange the first time.  Yet you
don't see a trend of musicians demanding more Kazoo-like violins to
make the initial transition easier.

Emacs is an inherently complex tool.  This complexity is productive in
the hands of experienced users, and this productivity is what makes
the decision for Emacs, in the long run, a rewarding one.

People that don't want to deal with complexity will remain only
marginally longer with Emacs before abandoning it if Emacs gets dumbed
down.

So the vetoing power should stay with those that have an interest of
keeping Emacs as their working editors for decades.  If we can improve
the first month of a newby without souring the last decade of a
seasoned user, we will by all means do so.  But bending over backwards
for the sake of people that are unlikely to stay with Emacs in the
long run, anyway, is a waste of effort.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
> Date: 19 Mar 2005 14:41:11 +0100
> 
> Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for horizontal
> scroll, [2] sizeable and cascadable windows instead of buffers inside
> the same frame, [3] heavy extension of the icon toolbars and [4]
> distinction between 'open' and 'new' file.

With the exception of the last one, these are all advanced stuff, not
something a newbie would stumble on, IMHO.

> Keys which would make emacs more "normal":
> M-F4 for exiting would be one.

This is the function of the window manager.  Where Emacs runs under a
window manager, Alt-F4 does close it.

> C-TAB for frame/window/buffer (depending on changes according to [2])
> switching.

Where did you see this key binding?

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:42:38 +0100, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> wrote:
>
>> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>>
>>> Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn
>>> it.  The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the
>>> first time, so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get
>>> to know it better.
>>
>> at some point everyone gives up (perhaps in disgust) on something,
>> instead of getting to know it better.
>
> Exactly. My heretic idea is to rethink the whole Emacs interface
> (defaults, keybindings). Make the default Emacs very similary to
> modern CUA-based applications.  Give less reason for the newbies to
> give up in disgust.

It takes a coherent idea to be considered a heretic.  Half-baked
moping is not heretical.  CUA mode exists, and is accessible via the
"Options" menu already.  And you are living in a fantasy world if you
think that newbies would be kept from giving up just because of that.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On 18 Mar 2005 22:57:17 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon
> <spam@mouse-potato.com>  wrote:
> 
> > PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> >
> >> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> >> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> >> newbies to get acquainted with it.
> >
> > C-h t
> 
> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial
> are  leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
> 
> I have some colleagues using VIM and Emacs and none of them use the
> standard keys for movement, all of them use the arrow keys. 

Arrow keys are not standard.  There are keyboard without arrow keys.
There are keyboards where the arrow keys are too small.  There are
keyboards where the arrow keys are far from the home row.

The users of emacs keep using C-f instead of -> because C-f is right
under the fingers while -> requires arm movement and back.  Same for
most other keys you call "standard".

> I've been using emacs for 6+ years, customized it inside out, wrote
> minor modes for  it and yet I too use the arrow keys, not M-f and
> M-b and such.
> 
> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn
> new  keybindings for cursor movement.

1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in the tutorial.

2- Since you can customize emacs, why don't you write the 
   ms-window-newbie-user-minor-mode yourself?  And while you're at it,
   write a macintosh-newbie-user-minor-mode and 
   an amiga-newbie-user-minor-mode and etc... On these systems, the
   "standard" keys are not what you think!


> > M-x viper RET
> 
> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.

No.  MS-Word is the usual editor.


> > Better put:
> >
> > alias newbie-emacs=nano # or pico
> >
> > in your ~/.bashrc
> 
> Sigh. When some people sees how I work with Emacs they want to learn
> it.  The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the
> first time,  so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get
> to know it  better.

I meant that the best way to leave the newbie state is to start
learning and using the new tool instead of trying to bind it to make
it look like the old tool.

Now, here is an idea:

   I learned the emacs keybinding using TextEdit.app on NeXTSTEP!
   (long before I started to use emacs).

Perhaps what you should do/ask is a NotePad.exe accepting the default
emacs key bindings.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
Grace personified,
I leap into the window.
I meant to do that.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:23:46 +0100
> 
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:17 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >
> > Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users
> > find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time someone
> > suggests them to be turned on by default.
> 
> And this is the wrong point of view. I'm a veteran user. I can turn  
> anything off I don't like

That's true, but requiring that veterans make significant changes to
their customizations with each new release is too harsh on them.  They
protest, and we don't want to alienate them.  If you ever maintained a
package with a large user base, you will understand.

> but a newbie cannot turn the useful things on until he gets to know
> emacs better.

I still don't see why you think it's so hard: I mentioned here already
the Options menu, which makes it easy to turn on features we think are
used by many users.

> The problem is they usually give up  
> (at least the ones I met), because they miss the convenience features!

Which convenience features that aren't found under Options are missed?

> I support turning every useful feature on by default.

Me too, but you _are_ aware that the definition of ``useful'' here is
the crux of the problem, right?  What's ``useful'' for one user might
well be ``annoying'' for another.

> I don't really see how a veteran user can find anything annoying.

Well, perhaps you should think again, then.

> I can put some lines into my emacs and I won't see that thing ever
> again.

That's what is annoying.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

>>>>> "n" == nfreimann  <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

n> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs.  And
>> 
>> 

n> Eli, what he wants to tell us is, that CUA bindings and GUI dialogs
n> are common today, and not proprietary key bindings and dialogs a la
n> mini buffer or something.

I  find  Emacs "proprietary"  (prorietary  and  Emacs  sounds like  an
oxymoron[?])  much  smarter than  CUA ones (that  you can  activate by
means  of  a   menu  item,  at  least  in   my  "GNU  Emacs  21.3.50.1
(powerpc-apple-darwin7.6.0)  of 2004-11-20  on cyrano"  and minibuffer
much more powerful than dialogs, anyway.

I can see NO modern tool matching Emacs editing power (neither that of
the tools of the sixes).

-- 
 /\            ___
/___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________
  //--\ | | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico  
\/		    e coltivatore diretto di software

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:34:07 +0100
> From: nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de>
> 
> Eli, what he wants to tell us is, that CUA bindings and GUI dialogs are 
> common today, and not proprietary key bindings and dialogs a la mini 
> buffer or something.

Emacs does have a CUA mode (the current CVS code allows to turn it on
from the Options menu).  Unfortunately, CUA keybindings are so
incompatible with traditional Emacs bindings that making them the
default would produce a terrible outcry among veteran users.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

>>>>> "PB" == Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> writes:

PB> 1- Probably, the theory of emacs  key binding should be put in the
PB> tutorial.

I  would remove  the word  "Probably". I  took an  introductory speech
about the  One Only Editor and  I noticed a  very interesting feedback
when I  explained the  theory behind keybindings  (or at least  what I
understood of this theory)

PB> No.  MS-Word is the usual editor.

Please, I just had my meal...!

-- 
 /\            ___
/___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________
  //--\ | | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico  
\/		    e coltivatore diretto di software

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:33:37 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like
>> SlickEdit,  Eclipse or Visual Studio.
>
> Strange concept of a "newbie" here.

Of course, I meant an Emacs newbie... One who used other software before,  
but not Emacs.

> So the vetoing power should stay with those that have an interest of
> keeping Emacs as their working editors for decades.  If we can improve
> the first month of a newby without souring the last decade of a
> seasoned user, we will by all means do so.  But bending over backwards
> for the sake of people that are unlikely to stay with Emacs in the
> long run, anyway, is a waste of effort.

The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all? Or is it  
only an additional burden (more clueless people on the help forums, etc.)?

We should answer this question first, because if attracting more users to  
Emacs is not really a priority then this thread is completely pointless.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Lee Sau Dan]

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

    >>  Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for
    >> horizontal scroll,

    David> C-x < and C-x >

Or C-PageUp and C-PageDown



    >> [2] sizeable and cascadable windows instead of buffers inside
    >> the same frame,

    David> Windows _are_ sizable, and what is displayed _is_ a window,
    David> not a buffer (you can have buffers that are not displayed,
    David> or buffers displyed in several windows at once).  Drag an
    David> unused spot of any modeline in a split frame (C-x 2) up and
    David> down or use C-x ^ to enlarge.  If you split windows
    David> vertically (with C-x 3), drag the point in the mode line
    David> under the scrollbar left and right.

I like Emacs the way it  is: windows dividing the frame into different
areas.  I hate overlapping windows or tabs because they make reading 2
buffers  (or two  different  parts of  the  same buffer)  side-by-side
difficult.  'Windows' in Emacs  is appropriate for that.  Please don't
change that.  If you want multiple frames, then C-x 5 2 yourself.


    >> [3] heavy extension of the icon toolbars and 

I don't care.  I have (tool-bar-mode -1) in my .emacs anyway.


    >> [4] distinction between 'open' and 'new' file.

    David> The problems with "new" (basically nameless buffers) are:

    David> a) There is no associated mode.  Emacs' most important
    David> property is that it has editing modes and syntax
    David> highlighting and keybindings for most tasks readily
    David> available.  It will almost always be easier to specify a
    David> file name to work with than the name of an Emacs mode.

    David> b) There is no associated file name.  When exiting and
    David> saving automatically (like the desktop package does), Emacs
    David> has no place to put the file.

    David> c) There is no associated autosave file.  If you crash
    David> after two hours of work, your work will get lost.

    David> d) Lots of modes offer running/compiling/testing your
    David> program using external tools that need accessible files.

    David> In short: I don't see how Emacs can benefit from that
    David> distinction.

But Emacs  does provide a  way for you  to do that effectively:  C-x b
*untitled1* RET.  (Or  C-x 4 b ..., which is what  I usually do.)  The
result is a new windows in fundamental-mode and no associated filename
(C-x C-s would prompt  you to enter a file name).  I  often do that to
create extra *scratch* buffers to  hold temp. data -- electronic rough
work sheets.





-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     李守敦                          ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:52:33 +0100
> 
> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. It is  
> pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by default.

It would be unthinkable to turn them on by default, because people who
are fast touch typists hold Shift while moving the cursor inside
upper-case text.  Emacs makes a point of being friendly to fast
typists.

> The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like SlickEdit,  
> Eclipse or Visual Studio.
> Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I think  
> the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these editors to  
> make the initial transition easier.

Since the differences are so large, it's hard to make Emacs similar
without changing the entire UI.

Btw, based on my colleagues' experience, the transition from Visual
Studio and its ilk to Emacs is not so hard.  I guess we have different
mileage.

> For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode if  
> I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is on C-x  
> C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which feature will  
> he use more frequently?
> 
> C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit  
> strange if I'm new to Emacs.

The idea in Emacs is that, since newbies mostly use the menu bar, we
show the key bindings there.  Later, when they switch to keyboard mode
of operation as their prime, they have already seen the key bindings.

This might be not the ideal setup, but given the vastly different
keybindings, how can we do better?

> At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You have to know a lot  
> of long key combinations to use it. Too complicated.")

Whoever says that should be pointed to the menus.  I'd expect newbies
to know that alredy, and use the menus (and most modern computer users
are menu-bar kind of people anyway).

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[nfreimann]

Giani,

unfortunately only a small number of users accepting the old fashion
key bindings, and simple mini buffer dialogs. The number is
decreasing.  cvs gtk2 emacs takes that into consideration. Again
thanks you to the cvs gtk2 emacs developers, the nqemacs people, and
those responsible for the windows version in general.

-- 
Regards
-NF

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:33:37 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>>
>>> The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like
>>> SlickEdit,  Eclipse or Visual Studio.
>>
>> Strange concept of a "newbie" here.
>
> Of course, I meant an Emacs newbie... One who used other software
> before, but not Emacs.
>
>> So the vetoing power should stay with those that have an interest
>> of keeping Emacs as their working editors for decades.  If we can
>> improve the first month of a newby without souring the last decade
>> of a seasoned user, we will by all means do so.  But bending over
>> backwards for the sake of people that are unlikely to stay with
>> Emacs in the long run, anyway, is a waste of effort.
>
> The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all? Or
> is it only an additional burden (more clueless people on the help
> forums, etc.)?

You are trying to frame loaded questions.  What is "a good thing"?
More people using Emacs is not a worthwhile objective per se.  If it
were, we should replace Emacs by toiletpaper, and its user base would
explode.  A worthwhile objective for a developer is to have Emacs
become a more productive tool for his work.  This is not unrelated to
the size of its user base, since developers usually tend to start out
as users.  Nevertheless attracting newbies at any price, in particular
the price of making Emacs less suitable for sustained productive work,
is not a worthwhile goal.

One has to keep in mind that Emacs is principally more an editing and
text manipulation framework rather than a single application.  And
that means that every developer has _lots_ of areas within the
contraption called Emacs that he is not familiar with.  Accessing that
functionality puts him on equal footing with a newbie, except for one
thing: he is already acquainted with the "Emacs way of doing things".
And so that this actually buys him something, consistency within Emacs
is more important than consistency to other applications.  This "Emacs
way of doing things" is rather pervasive: maneuvering around it tends
to complicate rather than simplify things.

Making Emacs more similar to other applications is a long-winded
process with high associated costs for developers, and also previous
users.  Newbies don't have an inherent right to be treated in
preference to more experienced and dedicated users.

> We should answer this question first, because if attracting more
> users to Emacs is not really a priority then this thread is
> completely pointless.

If priority means "should overrule all other considerations" then it
is my opinion that it should not be a priority.

And I am one of the most involved people regarding usability on the
Emacs developer list, and maintainer of the Emacs-based projects
AUCTeX and preview-latex that have their main focus on productivity
and usability.

Does this tell you something?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:22:49 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all? Or
>> is it only an additional burden (more clueless people on the help
>> forums, etc.)?
>
> You are trying to frame loaded questions.

No, it was a sincere question. And if the answer is no, it's not a good  
thing then I'm okay with it.

> What is "a good thing"?
> More people using Emacs is not a worthwhile objective per se.  If it
> were, we should replace Emacs by toiletpaper, and its user base would
> explode.  A worthwhile objective for a developer is to have Emacs
> become a more productive tool for his work.  This is not unrelated to
> the size of its user base, since developers usually tend to start out
> as users.

Exactly. I don't know what resources are at the emacs developers' disposal  
(do they work on it on their free time? is some of them paid to work on  
Emacs?), but if companies see more value in emacs then they might even  
sponsor developing some new features for them.

At companies when it comes to choosing a developer tool the recommendation  
of the employees and their existing experience with those tools can be an  
important factor at the decision.  So if Emacs is more newbie friendly  
that can mean more potential users, more value as a tool for employers and  
possibly more resources for future development.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Stefan Monnier]

> Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for horizontal
> scroll, [2] sizeable and cascadable windows instead of buffers inside
> the same frame, [3] heavy extension of the icon toolbars and [4]
> distinction between 'open' and 'new' file.

These are pretty fuzzy.  Could you describe more specifically the kind of
situations/problems/solutions you're thinking of?


        Stefan

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:22:49 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all?
>>> Or is it only an additional burden (more clueless people on the
>>> help forums, etc.)?
>>
>> You are trying to frame loaded questions.
>
> No, it was a sincere question. And if the answer is no, it's not a
> good thing then I'm okay with it.
>
>> What is "a good thing"?
>> More people using Emacs is not a worthwhile objective per se.  If it
>> were, we should replace Emacs by toiletpaper, and its user base would
>> explode.  A worthwhile objective for a developer is to have Emacs
>> become a more productive tool for his work.  This is not unrelated to
>> the size of its user base, since developers usually tend to start out
>> as users.
>
> Exactly. I don't know what resources are at the emacs developers'
> disposal (do they work on it on their free time? is some of them
> paid to work on Emacs?),

Most work on Emacs in their free time.  There have been times in the
past where a main developer got employed by the FSF for completing a
particular essential task or feature.

> but if companies see more value in emacs then they might even
> sponsor developing some new features for them.

Emacs has a rather strict copyright assignment policy to the FSF, and
it has a rather strict "if RMS does not think it a good idea right
now, it does not get in" policy.  While there have been corporate or
at least institutional contributions (in particular MULE comes to
mind), this is by no means easy to do.

In fact, one of the most important such corporate contributions was
not to be reconciled with Emacs development and management, and thus
split off to become XEmacs.  The XEmacs project thus has a much more
open stance towards corporate contributions and distributed
copyrights, and this has served them reasonably well for some time.  I
think there are still some commercial applications based on XEmacs as
a platform around.

But it has shown that the ability to accept corporate contributions is
no substitute for a sustained base of dedicated hackers for a project
of the peculiarity of Emacs.

I am not saying that Emacs could not easily make use of 10 times the
number of current developers, if they were well-organized, since much
of the functionality is separate from other functionality.  But while
the number of Emacs developers are fewer than desirable, XEmacs has
seen more of a decline in that area, in spite of being much more
accommodating to external contributions.

> At companies when it comes to choosing a developer tool the
> recommendation of the employees and their existing experience with
> those tools can be an important factor at the decision.  So if Emacs
> is more newbie friendly that can mean more potential users, more
> value as a tool for employers and possibly more resources for future
> development.

Emacs has not shown itself to accommodate systematic corporate
involvement well.  It will as far as I can see always be dependent on
dedicated individuals instead of corporate support, simply because you
can't make a business plan involving Emacs development and timelines.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Jason Rumney]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new
> users:
>
> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.

Where do these come from? What users would be familiar with them?
In every application I've come across recently, F3 is "next match"
for search operations.

The problem with any suggestion like this, is that the idea of a
single "standard" set of keybindings is mythical. Beyond a few very
basic bindings, there is no genuine standard. People come to Emacs
from any number of inferior text editors, and the way to make them
happy is an emulation mode for the editor they are coming from. We
already have emulation modes for several other text editors, can you
suggest (or better, contribute) other popular ones that are missing?

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:00:53 +0100
> 
> The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all?

It is a good thing, of course; but not at all costs.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> Date: 19 Mar 2005 16:45:30 +0100
> 
> 1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in the tutorial.

Please take another look at the tutorial--such an explanation is
already there.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> Exactly. My heretic idea is to rethink the whole Emacs interface
> (defaults, keybindings). Make the default Emacs very similary to
> modern CUA-based applications. Give less reason for the newbies to
> give up in disgust.

everyone finds their own reason.  though you can endeavor to be
entertaining, you cannot make people see what they do not wish to see.
for example, in this thread, i have tried to choose a partially aligned
position in hopes of obliquely redirecting your enthusiasm, but i have
failed.  now i go do other things...

thi

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:16:24 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:22:49 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The question is: is more people using Emacs a good thing at all?
>>>> Or is it only an additional burden (more clueless people on the
>>>> help forums, etc.)?
>>>
>>> You are trying to frame loaded questions.
>>
>> No, it was a sincere question. And if the answer is no, it's not a
>> good thing then I'm okay with it.
>>
>>> What is "a good thing"?
>>> More people using Emacs is not a worthwhile objective per se.  If it
>>> were, we should replace Emacs by toiletpaper, and its user base would
>>> explode.  A worthwhile objective for a developer is to have Emacs
>>> become a more productive tool for his work.  This is not unrelated to
>>> the size of its user base, since developers usually tend to start out
>>> as users.
>>
>> Exactly. I don't know what resources are at the emacs developers'
>> disposal (do they work on it on their free time? is some of them
>> paid to work on Emacs?),
>
> Most work on Emacs in their free time.  There have been times in the
> past where a main developer got employed by the FSF for completing a
> particular essential task or feature.
>
>> but if companies see more value in emacs then they might even
>> sponsor developing some new features for them.
>
> Emacs has a rather strict copyright assignment policy to the FSF, and
> it has a rather strict "if RMS does not think it a good idea right
> now, it does not get in" policy.  While there have been corporate or
> at least institutional contributions (in particular MULE comes to
> mind), this is by no means easy to do.

[...]

> Emacs has not shown itself to accommodate systematic corporate
> involvement well.  It will as far as I can see always be dependent on
> dedicated individuals instead of corporate support, simply because you
> can't make a business plan involving Emacs development and timelines.

I see. In that case there really is no obvious benefit of devoting  
resources to make Emacs more newbie friendly.

BTW, it seems Eclipse will fill this space instead of Emacs. It is   
universal tool platform - an open extensible IDE for anything and nothing  
in particular.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:16:24 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Emacs has not shown itself to accommodate systematic corporate
> involvement well.  It will as far as I can see always be dependent on
> dedicated individuals instead of corporate support, simply because you
> can't make a business plan involving Emacs development and timelines.
>

I see. In that case there really is no obvious benefit of devoting  
development resources to make Emacs more user friendly.

BTW, it seems in the corporate world Eclipse will fill this space instead  
of Emacs. It's a self described "universal tool platform - an open  
extensible IDE for anything and nothing in particular". When a newbie  
tells me he gave up on Emacs because is to alien I usually tell them to  
use Eclipse instead. And they usually are happy, because it's nice, shiny  
and point-and-clicky. :)

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:16:24 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Emacs has not shown itself to accommodate systematic corporate
>> involvement well.  It will as far as I can see always be dependent
>> on dedicated individuals instead of corporate support, simply
>> because you can't make a business plan involving Emacs development
>> and timelines.
>
> I see. In that case there really is no obvious benefit of devoting
> resources to make Emacs more newbie friendly.

You have forgotten my point that _every_ Emacs user tends to be a
newbie in a large part of its all-encompassing extent.

> BTW, it seems Eclipse will fill this space instead of Emacs. It is
> universal tool platform - an open extensible IDE for anything and
> nothing in particular.

I can't speak for Eclipse since I have neither tried and seen it.
Nevertheless, I don't doubt that Emacs retains appeal and usefulness
to a lot of people.

For example, I can't remember anybody ever touting using Eclipse as a
development platform for LaTeX, and that is one of the most important
applications of Emacs for me.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Shawn Betts]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> Exactly. I don't know what resources are at the emacs developers'
> disposal  (do they work on it on their free time? is some of them paid
> to work on  Emacs?), but if companies see more value in emacs then
> they might even  sponsor developing some new features for them.
>
> At companies when it comes to choosing a developer tool the
> recommendation  of the employees and their existing experience with
> those tools can be an  important factor at the decision.  So if Emacs
> is more newbie friendly  that can mean more potential users, more
> value as a tool for employers and  possibly more resources for future
> development.

Are you suggesting that Emacs become more palatable for companies? How
would that benefit Emacs? So you'd have a bunch of fools getting paid
to add ghastly features to Emacs that only a pointy haired boss would
like?

I think the only way something good could come from it is if companies
changed to recognize how awesome Emacs is.

Your intentions are good: get more people hacking emacs. But the
method would destroy everything that makes Emacs great in the first
place.

-Shawn

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:45:20 +0100, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> wrote:
>
> everyone finds their own reason.  though you can endeavor to be
> entertaining, you cannot make people see what they do not wish to see.
> for example, in this thread, i have tried to choose a partially aligned
> position in hopes of obliquely redirecting your enthusiasm, but i have
> failed.  now i go do other things...

Okay.

My enthusiasm has vanished, BTW. This all thread was just a sudden,  
half-baked idea. Reading all the answers I have a more thorough  
understanding of the situation. The development resources available for  
Emacs are scarce and the idea has no obvious benefits, so now I too go and  
do other things... :)

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Floyd L. Davidson]

jasonr (Jason Rumney) @  f2s.com wrote:
>PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new
>> users:
>>
>>      F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.

What an absurd set of bindings...  ;-)

Mine are F1 for help, F2 shows function key bindings, and all of
the rest change depending on the mode.  (And doing it that way
was a mistake on my part, because I *never* use F1 to get help,
so that is where the function key binding list should have
gone.  Some day I'll fix that...)

>Where do these come from? What users would be familiar with them?
>In every application I've come across recently, F3 is "next match"
>for search operations.
>
>The problem with any suggestion like this, is that the idea of a
>single "standard" set of keybindings is mythical.

Nooooo!  The *EMACS* keybindings are the only ones that make any
sense at all for an Emacs editor.

>Beyond a few very
>basic bindings, there is no genuine standard. People come to Emacs
>from any number of inferior text editors, and the way to make them
>happy is an emulation mode for the editor they are coming from. We

If newbies want to use inferior editors, they should stay with
what they have.  If they want to learn how to use a superior
editor, *that* is exactly what they should do.  Trying to dumb
down Emacs is not only dumb, it is *impossible* as far as making
it match every single one of the multitudes of inferior text
editors.  Emacs cannot be all of them at once.

And I just fail to see how an emulator for an inferior text
editor is in any way helping a newbie to learn Emacs.  They
don't need to be retaining old, bad, habits.  What they need is
a good crib sheet, with all of the most useful commands on it,
so that they can start using them.  That's the way to *learn*
commands, and learning commands is the way to learn Emacs.

>already have emulation modes for several other text editors, can you
>suggest (or better, contribute) other popular ones that are missing?

My first emacs was Perfect Writer on Kaypro in the early
1980's.  I put a sheet of paper over the (significant) unused
areas on the keyboard, cutout slots to match the keys, and
trimmed it to fit the edges.  I taped that down solid, and then
hand wrote as many key bindings as I could on it.  Soon enough
there were a bunch that I didn't need help remembering, and I
made a new one.  Each time I did that it was a little neater and
had more key bindings listed.  Eventually I had something like
200 (i.e., it had virtually every command not positively
memorized).  Perhaps a year later I didn't really need it.

Emacs is way too complex, at least for me, to ever remember anything
like all possible commands.  But still, learning a set of 300-500
commands is 1) not trivial, 2) *very* useful, 3) can't be done using
some other set of commands instead.

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:45:20 +0100, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> wrote:
>>
>> everyone finds their own reason.  though you can endeavor to be
>> entertaining, you cannot make people see what they do not wish to
>> see.  for example, in this thread, i have tried to choose a
>> partially aligned position in hopes of obliquely redirecting your
>> enthusiasm, but i have failed.  now i go do other things...
>
> Okay.
>
> My enthusiasm has vanished, BTW. This all thread was just a sudden,
> half-baked idea. Reading all the answers I have a more thorough
> understanding of the situation. The development resources available
> for Emacs are scarce and the idea has no obvious benefits,

It would be less exasperating conversing with you if you did not
constantly insinuate stuff and put words into one's mouth.  Nobody
said that improving Emacs' appeal to newbies has no obvious benefits.
It has merely been pointed out that this is not as easy an process as
you make it out to be.  We are working on it a major part of the time,
and I told you that I am one of the main proponents of such work, and
project leader for two major usability projects in the area of LaTeX.

Yet you still insist on misrepresenting on what has been said.  I find
this distasteful.

> so now I too go and do other things... :)

Probably a good idea.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:05:29 GMT, Shawn Betts  
<sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a> wrote:
>
> Are you suggesting that Emacs become more palatable for companies? How
> would that benefit Emacs? So you'd have a bunch of fools getting paid
> to add ghastly features to Emacs that only a pointy haired boss would
> like?

Not necessarily. It is also possible that if a company has a product and  
sees value in Emacs then it develops the necessary support packages for  
Emacs using its own resources.

For example, Ericsson created a programming language (Erlang) for which  
the default IDE is Emacs:

	http://www.erlang.org/faq/x652.html#AEN691

This is useful and makes Emacs more valuable (one more supported language).

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Shawn Betts]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys,
> etc. It is  pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned
> on by default.

Are you saying Emacs is not a modern system? Should we add a Start
button to Emacs too? It'd help newbs feel warm and fuzzy and its
pretty standard on "modern systems."

-Shawn

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[PT]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:15:28 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> My enthusiasm has vanished, BTW. This all thread was just a sudden,
>> half-baked idea. Reading all the answers I have a more thorough
>> understanding of the situation. The development resources available
>> for Emacs are scarce and the idea has no obvious benefits,
>
> It would be less exasperating conversing with you if you did not
> constantly insinuate stuff and put words into one's mouth.  Nobody
> said that improving Emacs' appeal to newbies has no obvious benefits.

It was my own conclusion after reading the answers. I don't see the  
benefits anymore.

> Yet you still insist on misrepresenting on what has been said.  I find
> this distasteful.

You're misinterpreting what I said. I'm not a native speaker. Maybe I  
cannot express myself properly. Sorry about that.

>> so now I too go and do other things... :)
>
> Probably a good idea.

Thank you for your kind words.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:15:28 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> My enthusiasm has vanished, BTW. This all thread was just a
>>> sudden, half-baked idea. Reading all the answers I have a more
>>> thorough understanding of the situation. The development resources
>>> available for Emacs are scarce and the idea has no obvious
>>> benefits,
>>
>> It would be less exasperating conversing with you if you did not
>> constantly insinuate stuff and put words into one's mouth.  Nobody
>> said that improving Emacs' appeal to newbies has no obvious
>> benefits.
>
> It was my own conclusion after reading the answers. I don't see the
> benefits anymore.

The benefits to details of your original proposal, maybe.  But that
does not make the ongoing efforts of contributors go away.  That Emacs
has a toolbar and a menubar and tooltips and popup messages telling
about keybindings for complex commands and draggable mode lines and
configurable frame layout and support for mice in a variety of ways
and an interactive help system and tutorials in several languages and
help sheets and whatever and that menus and keybindings are constantly
improved and fought over among the developers (which rarely use the
menus at all) all counts for nothing in your eyes.

The only thing that would count are your ideas, and you are
disappointed because people don't say that just following your lead
will cause paradise.

Userfriendliness is a hard and long process, and throwing around a few
halb-baked buzzphrases is not a major step forward in that regard.

That does not mean that the goal in itself is not worthwhile, but it
takes more than a quick stroke of presumed genius to put it into
motion.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Shawn Betts]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> On 18 Mar 2005 22:57:17 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon
> <spam@mouse-potato.com>  wrote:
> 
> > PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> >
> >> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> >> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> >> newbies to get acquainted with it.
> >
> > C-h t
> 
> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial
> are  leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
> 
> I have some colleagues using VIM and Emacs and none of them use the
> standard keys for movement, all of them use the arrow keys. I've been
> using emacs for 6+ years, customized it inside out, wrote minor modes
> for  it and yet I too use the arrow keys, not M-f and M-b and such.
> 
> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn
> new  keybindings for cursor movement.

I don't really understand your longterm objective. It seems like you
want to make Emacs easier to pick up for people who come from a
Windows background. So without thinking much about it, I can see how
it makes sense to change the keybindings to something they're used
to. But what happens after that?

Emacs is self consistent. Good Emacs programs follow The Emacs
Way. Changing some common keybindings might help newbs to stick with
it a bit longer, but pretty soon they'll hit the next layer. These
newbs still haven't learned how everything works together nor have
they become fimiliar with Emacs key bindings. So do you keep
disfiguring Emacs to hide from them the AWFUL truth? When does it end?
Eventually they'll HAVE learn how to use Emacs the way it was
intended. And I sure hope so! Emacs keybindings are WAY better.

In the end, the newb has to sit down and spend the time. There's no
way around it. Emacs is an AWESOME system. compromising that
awesomeness for cuddly fuzziness will just prolong the inevitable: the
newb will probably abandon Emacs. Like you said (in one of your
posts), its foreign. It takes effort to learn.

If newbs believe that Emacs is better then they'll stick with it long
enough for the sweet, sweet payoff. They have to want to learn
it. dicking with keybindings won't change that. 

Its not Emacs that has to change. Its their minds. Your time is better
spent erecting billboards telling ppl how insanely great Emacs is than
convincing Emacs hackers they should smash holes in their Perfect
System for fools.

-Shawn

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Shawn Betts]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

> Giani,
> 
> unfortunately only a small number of users accepting the old fashion
> key bindings, 

I love your wording: old fashion key bindings. As if some superior key
bindings have replaced them. What a joke.

> The number is decreasing.  

Its not because Emacs isn't keeping up. Its because Bad Software is
corrupting ppl from an early age. I don't think lobotomizing emacs to
"keep up" with "modern features" is going to make Emacs a better
editor. If more and more people choose pigeon-editors, Emacs users
die, and development comes to a halt that's a FAR better ending than
selling out to the stooge masses.

> cvs gtk2 emacs takes that into consideration. Again thanks you to
> the cvs gtk2 emacs developers, the nqemacs people, and those
> responsible for the windows version in general.

I fail to see how changing the toolkit is going to magically modernize
Emacs. Is it just the anti-aliased fonts and theme conformance? Is
that *all* it takes to turn a program from crusty and ancient to
modern and up-to-date?

-Shawn

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Shawn Betts <sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a> writes:

> Emacs is self consistent. Good Emacs programs follow The Emacs
> Way. Changing some common keybindings might help newbs to stick with
> it a bit longer, but pretty soon they'll hit the next layer. These
> newbs still haven't learned how everything works together nor have
> they become fimiliar with Emacs key bindings. So do you keep
> disfiguring Emacs to hide from them the AWFUL truth? When does it
> end?  Eventually they'll HAVE learn how to use Emacs the way it was
> intended. And I sure hope so! Emacs keybindings are WAY better.

Actually, they are scattered all over the keyboard regardless of the
layout, particularly for basic cursor movement.  They are intended to
be somewhat mnemonic, but they are not easy on the wrist.  RSI is a
recurring theme with major Emacs hackers.  vi bindings, at least on a
standard American keyboard, make more ergonomic sense, apart from
being shifted one position off home row for 10 finger typists.

But whether they are better or not, they are a complex and consistent
scheme, and changing them is not something you can do in a minute.

> Its not Emacs that has to change. Its their minds. Your time is
> better spent erecting billboards telling ppl how insanely great
> Emacs is than convincing Emacs hackers they should smash holes in
> their Perfect System for fools.

Oh, Emacs has changed all the time over years to accommodate more
users and in particular beginners.  Don't fall for the propagandists
that tell you otherwise simply because not everybody jumps with glee
at their proposals.

It takes time getting used to Emacs, but this is getting much more
tolerable than it was at one time.  Emacs has survived a slew of
operating systems and keybinding trends over the years, and there are
more to come.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Shawn Betts <sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a> writes:

> nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:
>
>> cvs gtk2 emacs takes that into consideration. Again thanks you to
>> the cvs gtk2 emacs developers, the nqemacs people, and those
>> responsible for the windows version in general.
>
> I fail to see how changing the toolkit is going to magically
> modernize Emacs. Is it just the anti-aliased fonts and theme
> conformance? Is that *all* it takes to turn a program from crusty
> and ancient to modern and up-to-date?

It is not all.  But the awful pseudographical look that consistently
does not fit in with whatever environment you place it in is one of
the major turnoffs of XEmacs for me.  It is so Emacs-19ish: it _tries_
looking like an application created for graphical display and has all
the features, but it all looks wrong, crude, garish.

My GTK+ version of Emacs, in contrast, is rather nice.  Even the
toolbar, while a waste of space, fits in nicely as long as you don't
use Gnus (in which case it turns into a retro-yuk nightmare).  I had
to sacrifice the shiny GTK+ toolbars, though: like almost any toolkit
toolbar except Athena, they are visual toys not useful for actual
work.  --without-toolkit-tool-bars, along with some X resources to get
the size and colors of the non-toolkit bars right, solves that problem
with a definite negative impact on the overall visual impression.

I would like to see a runtime option to replace toolkit scrollbars
with the non-toolkit version, though: that would mean that I don't
need to compile my own Emacs at one time.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Miles Bader]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> Transient mark mode is an abomination.  It really needed to be
> replaced by the implementation of temporary transient mark mode (which
> also is activated by dragging the mouse) in Emacs 22.

Yeesh.

It's matter of taste David.

[I've tried to use "temporary transient mark mode" exclusively before,
and found the "double press" required to activate it quite annoying.
It felt artificial and clumsy.]

-Miles
-- 
We live, as we dream -- alone....

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Miles Bader]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> BTW, it seems in the corporate world Eclipse will fill this space
> instead of Emacs. It's a self described "universal tool platform - an
> open extensible IDE for anything and nothing in particular". When a
> newbie tells me he gave up on Emacs because is to alien I usually tell
> them to use Eclipse instead. And they usually are happy, because it's
> nice, shiny and point-and-clicky. :)

FWIW, I've seen a number of beginning programmers start out with
Eclipse, be initially impressed, but later move to Emacs.

It's hard for me to judge because I've used Emacs for so long, but I
kinda understand why -- the sort of "more structured" interface of
Eclipse can be initially comforting, but ultimately end up feeling
restricting.  Once you get used to it, Emacs is far more accessible and
straight-forward (for mostly the same reasons that cause it to be
less structured).

-Miles
-- 
"Nah, there's no bigger atheist than me.  Well, I take that back.
I'm a cancer screening away from going agnostic and a biopsy away
from full-fledged Christian."  [Adam Carolla]

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>> Transient mark mode is an abomination.  It really needed to be
>> replaced by the implementation of temporary transient mark mode (which
>> also is activated by dragging the mouse) in Emacs 22.
>
> Yeesh.
>
> It's matter of taste David.
>
> [I've tried to use "temporary transient mark mode" exclusively before,
> and found the "double press" required to activate it quite annoying.
> It felt artificial and clumsy.]

It is artificial, but the times where I really _want_ an active
instead of an available region are rather few, and the side effects of
regions becoming either unavailable or completely dictatorial were
annoying in the extreme.  Now my regions are mostly in that half-baked
state that is most convenient for most purposes, at least for me.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Miles Bader]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> My GTK+ version of Emacs, in contrast, is rather nice.  Even the
> toolbar, while a waste of space, fits in nicely as long as you don't
> use Gnus (in which case it turns into a retro-yuk nightmare).

I'll bet if you asked Lars he'd put that on a Mug or something ...

   "Gnus:  A retro-yuk nightmare"

-Mmmiles
-- 
My spirit felt washed.  With blood.  [Eli Shin, on "The Passion of the Christ"]

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>> My GTK+ version of Emacs, in contrast, is rather nice.  Even the
>> toolbar, while a waste of space, fits in nicely as long as you don't
>> use Gnus (in which case it turns into a retro-yuk nightmare).
>
> I'll bet if you asked Lars he'd put that on a Mug or something ...
>
>    "Gnus:  A retro-yuk nightmare"

Oh, Gnus is fine.  As long as you keep it off the toolbar.  Maybe
someone should ask the GNOME artists whether they are willing to
contribute a set of icons, or maybe some set is available in some
other GNOME news client or stuff.

It is not that I ever need the toolbar myself, but I switch it on
occasionally when doing demonstrations to impress people.  And then
I'd feel embarrassed calling Gnus with its garish toolbar.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> We should answer this question first, because if attracting more users
> to  Emacs is not really a priority then this thread is completely
> pointless.

Well, it seems RMS had success in teaching secretaries use emacs and
even "customize" it (programming emacs lisp without telling them they
were programming!).

I think that ultimately it would be a very good thing for programmers
to have more users knowing applications such as emacs, which can be
customized programming in lisp, and knowing a little programming to do
so, because we programmers know better write programs than "use"
applications (who can stand to cut-and-paste 400 times instead of
writting a small emacs lisp function for an automatic systematic
edit?), and because it would open the users' minds letting them
realize that they need programmers to write complex programs instead
of sweating with Microsoft^W proprietary unprogrammable applications.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
Small brave carnivores
Kill pine cones and mosquitoes
Fear vacuum cleaner

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> > Date: 19 Mar 2005 16:45:30 +0100
> > 
> > 1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in the tutorial.
> 
> Please take another look at the tutorial--such an explanation is
> already there.

I mean, how to customize the key binding.  I find nothing about
global-set-key, local-set-key or key maps.


More over there is the problem that key bindings may dynamically be
put in place by modes, in a non systematic way, so that in some mode
you have to study the whole mode sources to know how to change the
bindings...
    

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
Kitty like plastic.
Confuses for litter box.
Don't leave tarp around.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

Shawn Betts <sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a> writes:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> 
> > By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys,
> > etc. It is  pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned
> > on by default.
> 
> Are you saying Emacs is not a modern system? Should we add a Start
> button to Emacs too? It'd help newbs feel warm and fuzzy and its
> pretty standard on "modern systems."
> 
> -Shawn

Good idea!  Put the menu in place of the mini-buffer and the mini
buffer on the top.  :-)

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Steinar Børmer]

David Kastrup wrote:

| With transient-mark-mode, the region tends to be marked when it annoys
| me, and unmarked when I would need it.

I see.  For me, having it marked when it's not needed has always been a
small sacrifice, as long as it's always present when needed (and for my
uses, it practically always is).

| An "active region" is more than just the area between point and an
| active mark.  For things like cut&paste, it amounts to pretty much the
| same, but it also affects search&replace operation and, say, in AUCTeX
| what happens if you use the keybindings for insertion environments and
| font selection commands (which go _around_ the active region).

I see your point.  I've never gotten around to AUCTeX though, so I
assume it's more of a problem there.
 
| > Would you care to elaborate on this?
| 
| You don't need to "go back and do it all over again".  Just use C-u
| C-x C-x to activate or reactivate an existing region.

Yes, that works.  It will still take some time before I'm convinced,
because this is such a habit for me.

-- 
SB

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Shawn Betts <sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a> writes:

> PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
>
>> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys,
>> etc. It is  pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned
>> on by default.
>
> Are you saying Emacs is not a modern system? Should we add a Start
> button to Emacs too? It'd help newbs feel warm and fuzzy and its
> pretty standard on "modern systems."

How about a "Startle" button?  It could randomly call a function such
as zone, insert-zippyism, psychoanalyze-pinhead...

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> Date: 20 Mar 2005 00:33:18 +0100
> 
> "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> > > Date: 19 Mar 2005 16:45:30 +0100
> > > 
> > > 1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in the tutorial.
> > 
> > Please take another look at the tutorial--such an explanation is
> > already there.
> 
> I mean, how to customize the key binding.

Then why did you write ``the theory of emacs key binding''?  What's
the ``theory'' thing about?

> I find nothing about global-set-key, local-set-key or key maps.

The tutorial intentionally does not explain customizations (it says so
near the beginning).  Personally, I think a tutorial shouldn't cover
such advanced stuff, as long as it points to the manual that does.

> More over there is the problem that key bindings may dynamically be
> put in place by modes, in a non systematic way, so that in some mode
> you have to study the whole mode sources to know how to change the
> bindings...

There's no need to read the sources, only to type "C-h m".

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Corneli]

I'm just writing to say hi to Shawn.

And to mention that I can't remember the last time I cared about
default keybindings.  I think the combined power of xmodmap and
`global-set-key' makes default keymaps pretty irrelevant for anyone
who can't deal with the normal way of doing things or who thinks they
have a better way.  I use some default keybindings and lots that I
made myself.

My experience would seem to say that "making emacs easier for new
users" has nothing to do with default bindings, but it might depend
some on the programs for changing bindings and their documentation.

I think that my only complaint as a "new user" is that migrating from
Rmail to Gnus doesn't appear to be as easy as perhaps it should be.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

EZ> Then why did you write ``the theory of emacs key binding''?
EZ> What's the ``theory'' thing about?

It's not instantly  clear that the more slower to  access a command is
the less  frequent is its  use, that the  choice of the key  bindin is
mnemonic (at least in English),  that when you use control you usually
do things on a character basis, with meta on a word basis...

Those  are things a  newbie can't  imagine, being  trapped in  the CUA
interface and its limited power...

-- 
 /\            ___
/___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________
  //--\ | | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico  
\/		    e coltivatore diretto di software

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[nfreimann]

Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:

>Those  are things a  newbie can't  imagine, being  trapped in  the CUA
>interface and its limited power...
>  
>
there is no future for anything else than full CUA compability and GUI 
dialogs for everything. The older people, still familar with the old X11 
emacs, are dying out. I'm almost 60 years old, a emacs user since '87. 
emacs must become a much improved gedit. It must become the free 
alternative to Slickedit, a famous $299.00 editor once developed out of  
emacs sources.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Steinar Børmer]

David Kastrup wrote:

| People that don't want to deal with complexity will remain only
| marginally longer with Emacs before abandoning it if Emacs gets dumbed
| down.

I think you're right.  The willingness to learn a complicated tool, and
the knowledge of the benefits to be had, are what determines the outcome
in the end, not how similar the key bindings are to $PREVIOUS_EDITOR.

| If we can improve the first month of a newby without souring the last
| decade of a seasoned user, we will by all means do so.

XEmacs has a newbie-friendly startup help system, where it cycles
through a couple of concise, helpful tips pages upon startup.  GNU Emacs
has this too, but it's shorter and covers fewer of the commands that are
likely to be sought by new users.
 
Especially helpful to completely clueless users is the page where XEmacs
says:

        _Useful stuff_ :

        Things that you should learn rather quickly...

        C-x C-f: visit a file
        C-x C-s: save changes
        C-u: undo changes
        C-x C-c: exit XEmacs

Above this is a line saying:

        `C-' means the control key, `M-' means the meta key

I suggest adding something similiar to GNU Emacs.

-- 
SB

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Steinar Børmer]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

| > From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
| > Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:52:33 +0100
| 
| > At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You have to know
| > a lot of long key combinations to use it. Too complicated.")
| 
| Whoever says that should be pointed to the menus.  I'd expect newbies
| to know that alredy, and use the menus (and most modern computer users
| are menu-bar kind of people anyway).

In fact, on startup GNU Emacs says:

  "You can do basic editing with the menu bar and scroll bar using the
  mouse".

Clearly visible as line two of the splash screen.  If you miss that,
then you're not trying very hard to learn your new tool.

-- 
SB

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

>>>>> "n" == nfreimann  <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

n> Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:

>> Those are things a newbie can't imagine, being trapped in the CUA
>> interface and its limited power...

n> there is no future for anything else than full CUA compability and
n> GUI dialogs for everything.

I hope not.

Not unless, as stated before by other people, this doesn't "hurt" the old
way of working. That is much much more powerful and smartly designed than
CUA.

-- 
 /\            ___
/___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________
  //--\ | | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico  
\/		    e coltivatore diretto di software

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> > Four fundamental issues would be: [1] Possibility for horizontal
> > scroll,
> 
> C-x <  and C-x >

Is that scrolling? Looks like page left and right imho. 
> 
> Windows _are_ sizable, and what is displayed _is_ a window, not a

I know, but people who would get interested in using emacs probably
are used to other (MS word-like) applications beforehand. I am mostly
guessing here, but I think the main reasons for running emacs would
be programming or latex.

Many (most?) compilers come with an editor which people probably try
first. Latex people probably have started out on a word processor
in itself being an editor.

None of the applications I have seen of this kind have the same
notion of windows, frames and buffers as emacs has.

> The problems with "new" (basically nameless buffers) are:
> 
> a) There is no associated mode. 

Leads me to an idea: A mode selection menu.

> specify a file name to work with than the name of an Emacs mode.

Isn't that a matter of implementation of the UI?


> b) There is no associated file name.  When exiting and saving
> automatically (like the desktop package does), Emacs has no place to
> put the file.

Emacs (some modes at least) by default put files in different
directories. Just put unsaved buffer in a specific place.

> c) There is no associated autosave file.  If you crash after two hours
> of work, your work will get lost.

That would be like MS word so that's would just make it more normal ;-)

> d) Lots of modes offer running/compiling/testing your program using
> external tools that need accessible files.

That could be a problem for sure. But compile usually prompts for a
save. 

> In short: I don't see how Emacs can benefit from that distinction.

Put it in and let experienced users have an option for disabling it?

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Lee Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> writes:

> I like Emacs the way it  is:

> I don't care.

Me too. But, the students I force to use emacs for simulation
(http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/dna) don't like it.

I would very much like a different situation than I am in now. The
students very much would like another, more "normal" editor. So
probably I ought to work in emacs to develop an editor looking and
feeling more as anything else and distribute the program with that,
instead of the ideal situation:

Have them work in emacs too and over time learn all the great
features, but start out on something appealing to people coming from
MS word.

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> With the exception of the last one, these are all advanced stuff, not
> something a newbie would stumble on, IMHO.

MS Word and winedt are not advanced, but do have that.

> This is the function of the window manager.  Where Emacs runs under a
> window manager, Alt-F4 does close it.

C-h k gives me:
<M-f4> is undefined

> > C-TAB for frame/window/buffer (depending on changes according to [2])
> > switching.
> 
> Where did you see this key binding?

Almost anywhere but in MS word and emacs, for instance: winedt, excel,
gimp, mozilla.


-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> These are pretty fuzzy.  Could you describe more specifically the kind of
> situations/problems/solutions you're thinking of?

Winedt is very good example of something new latex users (including
myself 7 years ago) finds appealing.

The screenshots have all this.
http://www.winedt.com/HTML/snap.html

And so have microsoft word, open office,...

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Jason Rumney]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> Many (most?) compilers come with an editor which people probably try
> first. Latex people probably have started out on a word processor
> in itself being an editor.
>
> None of the applications I have seen of this kind have the same
> notion of windows, frames and buffers as emacs has.

Why would people try such an editor, then decide to try Emacs instead?
Usually it is because they are dissatisfied with the editor that comes
with their IDE. One big advantage for me of Emacs over IDE editors is
the way it lays out its windows. It is very useful when programming to
have two windows side by side, or above and below each other. The only
way to do this in an IDE editor is to manually resize all your windows
to fit (then you still have too much space wasted for extra title and
status bars) or to set it to tiled (and have all windows that you have
open tiled).

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> For example, I can't remember anybody ever touting using Eclipse as a
> development platform for LaTeX, and that is one of the most important
> applications of Emacs for me.

There are some very simple plugins for eclipse, but winedt would be
the main competitor in the windows world for latex. 

I think the situation for people who could see the idea behind emacs
is that they have a need for an editor for either a programming
language or latex. But to me it was just too crunchy a bite to start
out on both latex and emacs in one go. So I wasted years working with
winedt for latex (and configuring it for metapost) and programmers
file editor for fortran.

If emacs had looked a little more like what I knew then (notepad and
word perfect) I could have chewed it. My experience says that this is
what other windows people who should start programming or latexing
also could benefit from. 

A look and feel like winedt or eclipse but with the possibility for
the conventional emacs look and access to all the emacs modes and
features would be close to a perfect world for me. 

I have no idea what it would take of programming efforts, but as long
the horisontal scroll is not available, I am speaking about a project
of eons.

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> 2- Since you can customize emacs, why don't you write the 
>    ms-window-newbie-user-minor-mode yourself?  

I, at least, have been considering this as a option.

>    And while you're at it,
>    write a macintosh-newbie-user-minor-mode and 
>    an amiga-newbie-user-minor-mode and etc... On these systems, the
>    "standard" keys are not what you think!

How are emacs users distributed between systems?

> I meant that the best way to leave the newbie state is to start
> learning and using the new tool instead of trying to bind it to make
> it look like the old tool.

People have to learn to roll, sit, crawl, and stand before they can
walk. 

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Floyd L. Davidson]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> wrote:
>Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
>
>>Those  are things a  newbie can't  imagine, being  trapped in  the CUA
>>interface and its limited power...
>>
>>
>there is no future for anything else than full CUA compability
>and GUI dialogs for everything. The older people, still familar
>with the old X11 emacs, are dying out. I'm almost 60 years old,
>a emacs user since '87. emacs must become a much improved
>gedit. It must become the free alternative to Slickedit, a
>famous $299.00 editor once developed out of  emacs sources.

Why must it become any of those things?

"GUI dialogs for everything"???  Why?  How about only for things
where it is appropriate?  (I'm sure there are some, though I
can't think of any offhand.)

I think it was David Kastrup who mentioned that a lot of effort
is put into continuing to make Emacs comfortable for good touch
typists.  That goal has a lot of merit.

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Floyd L. Davidson]

steinab@ifi.uio.no (Steinar Børmer) wrote:
>David Kastrup wrote:
>
>| People that don't want to deal with complexity will remain only
>| marginally longer with Emacs before abandoning it if Emacs gets dumbed
>| down.
>
>I think you're right.  The willingness to learn a complicated tool, and
>the knowledge of the benefits to be had, are what determines the outcome
>in the end, not how similar the key bindings are to $PREVIOUS_EDITOR.

I think too that people who have that sort of mind set will
recognize that characteristic of Emacs very quickly, and realize
they have indeed found the right editor, even though at the time
they make that decision they might be barely functional with it.

On the other hand, making the default some false front that
supposedly provide easy passage from some other editor would
serve little purpose other than to hide the real nature of Emacs
from those who actually will be comfortable with it and become
long term users.

>| If we can improve the first month of a newby without souring the last
>| decade of a seasoned user, we will by all means do so.
>
>XEmacs has a newbie-friendly startup help system, where it cycles
>through a couple of concise, helpful tips pages upon startup.  GNU Emacs
>has this too, but it's shorter and covers fewer of the commands that are
>likely to be sought by new users.
>
>Especially helpful to completely clueless users is the page where XEmacs
>says:
>
>        _Useful stuff_ :
>
>        Things that you should learn rather quickly...
>
>        C-x C-f: visit a file
>        C-x C-s: save changes
>        C-u: undo changes
>        C-x C-c: exit XEmacs
>
>Above this is a line saying:
>
>        `C-' means the control key, `M-' means the meta key
>
>I suggest adding something similiar to GNU Emacs.
>
>--
>SB

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Pascal Bourguignon]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> > Date: 20 Mar 2005 00:33:18 +0100
> > 
> > "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> > 
> > > > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
> > > > Date: 19 Mar 2005 16:45:30 +0100
> > > > 
> > > > 1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in
> > > > the tutorial.
> > > 
> > > Please take another look at the tutorial--such an explanation is
> > > already there.
> > 
> > I mean, how to customize the key binding.
> 
> Then why did you write ``the theory of emacs key binding''?  What's
> the ``theory'' thing about?

It's about giving some sense of Grandeur about it.  
Rhetorics if you wll.
 

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Corneli]

   "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   > > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
   > > Date: 20 Mar 2005 00:33:18 +0100
   > > 
   > > "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
   > > 
   > > > > From: Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com>
   > > > > Date: 19 Mar 2005 16:45:30 +0100
   > > > > 
   > > > > 1- Probably, the theory of emacs key binding should be put in
   > > > > the tutorial.
   > > > 
   > > > Please take another look at the tutorial--such an explanation is
   > > > already there.
   > > 
   > > I mean, how to customize the key binding.
   > 
   > Then why did you write ``the theory of emacs key binding''?  What's
   > the ``theory'' thing about?

   It's about giving some sense of Grandeur about it.  
   Rhetorics if you wll.


I agree - specifically, the Rhetoric of Extensibility.

Thus, in addition to being able to press M-f, M-b, I also have

(global-set-key [(meta right)] 'forward-word)
(global-set-key [(meta left)] 'backward-word)

and 274 other globally redefined keybindings.  And a fairly
non-standard keyboard layout in which all the modifiers are actually
within easy reach.  Which, BTW, I began work on within my first three
months of learning how to use Emacs and have been very happy with ever
since it was completed.  However, all traces of how I actually
embarked on this happy adventure are lost.  I know it had to do with
wanting to learn how to insert latex symbols quickly and also save my
hands/wrists.

Key binding does need some Theory - and regardless of whether this
topic is mentioned in the tutorial, it seems that all of the syntaxes
could be explained in more detail the info pages.

As a thought for how to actually make Emacs easier for new users to
use, what do you think about the idea of having a Tutorial subsystem,
like the Info subsystem?  Would it help people to learn more things in
a guided learn-by-doing fashion?

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[ken]

PT wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>>> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
>>> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100
>>>
>>> > C-h t
>>>
>>> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are
>>> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
>>

As a touch-typist, I avoid the arrow keys, as well as the PageUp, 
PageDown, and all the other keys in that section of the keyboard.  And I 
avoid applications which force me to use them.  What I like about emacs 
is that I don't have to use these keys.  They really get in the way of 
productivity.


>>
>> [....]
>
>
>
> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. 
> It is  pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by 
> default.


Same applies here as above.  If you like using these kinds of 
keybindings, why don't you simply use an editor that uses them.  It 
sounds like learning something new is too advanced for you.


>
>>> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new
>>> keybindings for cursor movement.
>>
>>
>> [....]
>

It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for someone who doesn't want 
to spend a half hour learning the basics of a new application.  You 
don't sound at all like a heretic; rather, it sounds like you're just 
really lazy.  Emacs is a great editor (and a lot more).  But, yeah, you 
have to learn a few new things in order to use it.  Rather than wasting 
time and bandwidth whining about how *hard* it is (because it really 
isn't all that hard), why not just spend some time learning?


>
>
> [....]
> I think the most frequent features should be reachable with a single 
> key  binding or with a multikey binding which involves at most two keys.
>
> For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode 
> if  I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is 
> on C-x  C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which 
> feature will  he use more frequently?
>
> C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit  
> strange if I'm new to Emacs.
>
> I know these are traditional bindings, but they are strange 
> nevertheless.  At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You 
> have to know a lot  of long key combinations to use it. Too 
> complicated.")


I'm guessing that there's millions of people using emacs and doing so 
quite happily.  Do you seriously think it's a good idea to change 
keybindings that millions of people are accustomed to simply because you 
don't want to spend a half hour to learn them?

Sorry to sound harsh, but your suggestions need to be put in perspective.


-- 
A lot of us are working harder than we want, at things we dont like to
do.  Why? ...In order to afford the sort of existence we don't care to
live.
	-- Bradford Angier

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> Me too. But, the students I force to use emacs for simulation
> (http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/dna) don't like it.

if this software produces graphs or other images, you can display
them in an emacs buffer.  that is all the UI you will need to
trick students into enjoying the fast edit cycle.  lure them w/
(simulated ;-) interactivity.  if you drop the request for a
separate program for UI, perhaps emacs lisp programmers would be
more inclined to contribute to the project (hint hint).

the idea is to live in emacs when possible (i.e., all the time).

thi

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

> Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
>
>>Those are things a newbie can't imagine, being trapped in the CUA
>>interface and its limited power...
>>  
>>
> there is no future for anything else than full CUA compability and
> GUI dialogs for everything.

The wayside of Emacs is littered with operating systems and concepts
without which there was no future.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Alan Mackenzie]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> wrote on Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:01:19 +0100:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:16:24 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

>> Emacs has not shown itself to accommodate systematic corporate
>> involvement well.  It will as far as I can see always be dependent on
>> dedicated individuals instead of corporate support, simply because you
>> can't make a business plan involving Emacs development and timelines.


> I see. In that case there really is no obvious benefit of devoting
> development resources to make Emacs more user friendly.

> BTW, it seems in the corporate world Eclipse will fill this space
> instead  of Emacs. It's a self described "universal tool platform - an
> open  extensible IDE for anything and nothing in particular". When a
> newbie  tells me he gave up on Emacs because is to alien I usually tell
> them to  use Eclipse instead. And they usually are happy, because it's
> nice, shiny  and point-and-clicky. :)

Like David, I've neither seen nor used Eclipse.  You describe it as
"point-and-clicky".  I cannot use point-and-clicky interfaces when I'm
dealing with text - the mouse movements on the screen distract me too
much from the text I'm dealing with.  Thus I need Emacs's facility of
being fully usable without the mouse.  Is Eclipse also fully usable
without a mouse?

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
> A look and feel like winedt or eclipse but with the possibility for
> the conventional emacs look and access to all the emacs modes and
> features would be close to a perfect world for me.

The constant general babbling about look-and-feel is completely
fruitless.  Only specific proposals can be implemented.

> I have no idea what it would take of programming efforts, but as
> long the horisontal scroll is not available, I am speaking about a
> project of eons.

hscroll-mode is an interactive autoloaded Lisp function in `hscroll'.
(hscroll-mode &optional ARG)

This function is obsolete.
Emacs now does hscrolling automatically, if `truncate-lines' is non-nil.
Also see `automatic-hscrolling'.

[back]

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> People have to learn to roll, sit, crawl, and stand before they can
> walk.

So do you tie their legs until you feel they should be allowed to
walk?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Alan Mackenzie]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> wrote on Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:57:55 +0100:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:22:49 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

[ .... ]

> Exactly. I don't know what resources are at the emacs developers'
> disposal  (do they work on it on their free time? is some of them paid
> to work on  Emacs?), but if companies see more value in emacs then they
> might even  sponsor developing some new features for them.

Well, there's one Emacs developer down here in Munich who regularly posts
to an Emacs mailing list from his employer's mail system in working time.
That strongly suggests that his company is sponsoring the development of
his package.

> At companies when it comes to choosing a developer tool the
> recommendation  of the employees and their existing experience with
> those tools can be an important factor at the decision.

What a strange notion!  When it comes to tools like text editors,
developers should be allowed to chose their own tools, even if they are
proprietary and expensive.  What could be more damaging to productivity
than being forced to use an unfamiliar and disliked text editor?

> So if Emacs is more newbie friendly that can mean more potential users,
> more value as a tool for employers and  possibly more resources for
> future development.

Emacs is primarily a tool for professionals, and it is necessary to
invest a lot of time in learning it before the returns show.  Making it
"newbie friendly" would be good only if it didn't make Emacs less good
for experienced users.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Bush]

MS Word, at it's start, was anything but intuitive. There was even a
'WordPerfect' mode for those migrating from that program, which I used
because it mapped the function keys to something I was familiar with.

That said, I think the whole 'user-friendly' notion is over-rated, and
misses the point. The only 'user-friendly' aspect that's worth
anything is having a 'friendly user' around to turn to. So if a newbie
is working around people who are using emacs, they'll learn emacs
faster. If they're working with people using MS Whatever, they'll
learn that faster.

And those who turn to emacs are, for the most part, doing so because
MS Whatever isn't fulfilling their needs anyway, even with the dancing
doo-dads,dialogs for everything, and pointy-clickey icons.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
> Date: 20 Mar 2005 13:39:09 +0100
> 
> "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > With the exception of the last one, these are all advanced stuff, not
> > something a newbie would stumble on, IMHO.
> 
> MS Word and winedt are not advanced, but do have that.

If MS Word isn't advanced, then what is?

> > This is the function of the window manager.  Where Emacs runs under a
> > window manager, Alt-F4 does close it.
> 
> C-h k gives me:
> <M-f4> is undefined

On what OS?  Under which window manager?

> > > C-TAB for frame/window/buffer (depending on changes according to [2])
> > > switching.
> > 
> > Where did you see this key binding?
> 
> Almost anywhere but in MS word and emacs, for instance: winedt, excel,
> gimp, mozilla.

4 examples vs 2 is not ``almost anywhere''.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Jochen Küpper]

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Joe Corneli <jcorneli-eAxC7CpwZ5r5xfTjtVVUew@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thus, in addition to being able to press M-f, M-b, I also have
>
> (global-set-key [(meta right)] 'forward-word)
> (global-set-key [(meta left)] 'backward-word)

Hmm, my GNU Emacs 21.3.1 seems to have these build-in... And I do use
them all the time (strange typing style included;)

Greetings,
Jochen
-- 
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit                http://www.Jochen-Kuepper.de
    Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité                GnuPG key: CC1B0B4D
        (Part 3 you find in my messages before fall 2003.)

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Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
>> Date: 20 Mar 2005 13:39:09 +0100
>> 
>> "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > With the exception of the last one, these are all advanced stuff,
>> > not something a newbie would stumble on, IMHO.
>> 
>> MS Word and winedt are not advanced, but do have that.
>
> If MS Word isn't advanced, then what is?

You mean, in the pathological sense?  Like "Uh oh, this is far too
much advanced.  There is nothing we can really do except stitch this
up again."

XPost&Fup-To a.r.e.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Alan Mackenzie]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote on Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:44:12 +0100:
> Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

>> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

>> A look and feel like winedt or eclipse but with the possibility for
>> the conventional emacs look and access to all the emacs modes and
>> features would be close to a perfect world for me.

...Whatever those programs look like and feel like.  Given that this is
an Emacs group, it's reasonable to expect people to know Emacs, at least
a bit.  But please, _describe_ these exotic unknown programs rather than
just referring to them.  A lot of people here, possibly most, _don't_
know winedt and eclipse.

> The constant general babbling about look-and-feel is completely
> fruitless.  Only specific proposals can be implemented.

>> I have no idea what it would take of programming efforts, but as
>> long the horisontal scroll is not available, I am speaking about a
>> project of eons.

> hscroll-mode is an interactive autoloaded Lisp function in `hscroll'.
> (hscroll-mode &optional ARG)

> This function is obsolete.
> Emacs now does hscrolling automatically, if `truncate-lines' is non-nil.
> Also see `automatic-hscrolling'.

I think the man wants a horizontal scroll bar.  I also have a sneaking
suspicion you're aware of this, David.  ;-)  I think a horizontal scroll
bar in Emacs would be popular, though I wouldn't enable it for myself.

> -- 
> David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Floyd L. Davidson]

ken <gebser@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>As a touch-typist, I avoid the arrow keys, as well as the
>PageUp, PageDown, and all the other keys in that section of the
>keyboard.  And I avoid applications which force me to use them.
>What I like about emacs is that I don't have to use these keys.
>They really get in the way of productivity.

A good point.

I learned long ago not to bind commonly used commands to
function keys.  First its harder to type them, but second and of
greater importance to me, they aren't always available (e.g.,
when logged in remotely, or on a partially configured system,
etc. etc.).  Being used to touch typing all of the common
commands using regular keys provides much better functionality
(in my case, and that may not be true for others).

But that also left the question of what to do with the function
keys.

I bind them, on a per mode basis, to locally defined or not so
commonly used commands.  The problem with that was not being
able to remember 50-100 function key bindings that changed.  So
I came up with a function to list only function key bindings.
All I need do is remember that a command exists, and that F2
will print a list of bindings to show how to access the command.

I'm using Gnus right now, so F2 prints a list that starts off
like this,

  f1              << help-command >>
  f2              fld-describe-fkeys
  f3              fld-bold-word
  f4              fld-italic-word
  f5              fld-underline-word
  f6              ispell-message
  f7              fld-fix-buffer
  f8              fld-picture-mode-toggle
  f9              dictionary-search
  f10             dictionary-match-words

It goes on to show every combination, such as shifted Fkeys,
C-fkeys, etc.  And if F2 is used with any of those modifiers,
the list is abbreviated to only show bindings with the given
modifier.

As an example, switching from the article buffer back to the
summary buffer changes to a new set of bindings, which begins
with this list:

  f1              << help-command >>
  f2              fld-describe-fkeys
  f3              fld-date-file-now
  f4              rfc-search
  f5              fld-gnus-date-timer
  f6              gnus-article-treat-html
  f7              gnus-summary-toggle-mime
  f8              gnus-summary-repair-multipart
  f9              gnus-summary-delete-article
  f10             dictionary-match-words


>> By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow
>> keys, etc. It is  pretty standard in modern systems, so it
>> should be turned on by default.
>
>Same applies here as above.  If you like using these kinds of
>keybindings, why don't you simply use an editor that uses them.
>It sounds like learning something new is too advanced for you.

I would suggest that for people who are willing to select an
editor based on default key bindings (particularly key bindings
for function/arrow/ etc keys), emacs is far too complex an
editor...  ;-(

>>>> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new
>>>> keybindings for cursor movement.

Well, certainly not if they have learned the *right* ones.  What
that is might be open to question, but for some of us the only
possible bindings are traditional Emacs bindings.  I believe
that is *exactly* what newbies should learn first.

>It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for someone who
>doesn't want to spend a half hour learning the basics of a new

Can anyone learn the basics of Emacs in half an hour?  Maybe our
definition of "basics" is different, but I'd guess maybe a week
of constant use might get close.  Most users don't even realize
what Emacs is with even that much use.

>application.  You don't sound at all like a heretic; rather, it
>sounds like you're just really lazy.  Emacs is a great editor
>(and a lot more).  But, yeah, you have to learn a few new things
>in order to use it.  Rather than wasting time and bandwidth
>whining about how *hard* it is (because it really isn't all that
>hard), why not just spend some time learning?

There is lazy... and there is lazy.  Lazy as in uncaring about
getting work done is one thing.  But lazy as in first working to
make work easier is is different.  Emacs is ideal to make work
easier.  But emulating inferior editors is not the way to do it.

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Corneli]

I guess I really was speaking rhetorically!


   Joe Corneli <jcorneli@math.utexas.edu> writes:

   > Thus, in addition to being able to press M-f, M-b, I also have
   >
   > (global-set-key [(meta right)] 'forward-word)
   > (global-set-key [(meta left)] 'backward-word)

   Hmm, my GNU Emacs 21.3.1 seems to have these build-in... And I do use
   them all the time (strange typing style included;)

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Sean Richards]

floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes:


> I came up with a function to list only function key bindings.
> All I need do is remember that a command exists, and that F2
> will print a list of bindings to show how to access the command.

Hi Floyd,

Can you post the elisp that you use for this?

Cheers,  Sean

-- 
"Hver sin smak", sa vintapperen, han drakk mens de andre sloss."

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> writes:

> Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:
> 
> > Me too. But, the students I force to use emacs for simulation
> > (http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/dna) don't like it.
> 
> if this software produces graphs or other images, you can display
> them in an emacs buffer.  that is all the UI you will need to
> trick students into enjoying the fast edit cycle.  

You are right. BTW, could I build a UI with drag'n'drop possibilities
inside emacs?

> if you drop the request for a
> separate program for UI, perhaps emacs lisp programmers would be
> more inclined to contribute to the project (hint hint).

But I have already. 

> the idea is to live in emacs when possible (i.e., all the time).

I do (Except for w3, which never get to work. )

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> If MS Word isn't advanced, then what is?

It is the application any child uses first (after games and browsers
that is). You are right, however, it is advanced and makes many people
frustrated. But, it has a lot of clickable icons, that can makes it
do stuff. Perhaps that is what makes it attractive, I don't know?
Perhaps it's only marketing.

> On what OS?  Under which window manager?

Windows XP

> 4 examples vs 2 is not ``almost anywhere''.
In general those that have tabs for the windows:
wxpython, Pythonwin, Refrigeration Utilities, Matlab, Texniccenter,
winshell 

In general not those which allow only one file (buffer) in one window
(frame): maple, octave, maxima, gsview, open office.

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> The constant general babbling about look-and-feel is completely
> fruitless.  Only specific proposals can be implemented.

Like <news:uhdj721oo.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>?

> hscroll-mode is an interactive autoloaded Lisp function in `hscroll'.
> (hscroll-mode &optional ARG)

Great and useful, but not horisontal scrollbar.

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> So do you tie their legs until you feel they should be allowed to
> walk?

I'd like not to. Do you give courses in using emacs for your
colleagues, is that the way to go (walk)? 

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Joe Bush <bushj004@hawaii.rr.com> writes:

> That said, I think the whole 'user-friendly' notion is over-rated, and
> misses the point. 

I agree, 'user-friendly' means 'eyecandy' and that you can do
something just by clicking somewhere. 'User-friendly' for newbies and
for experienced users are more less the opposite, at least the way
software is today.


-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Mathias Dahl]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> newbies to get acquainted with it.
> [...]
> Useful general settings should be turned on by default. column
> numbers,  global font lock, etc.
> [...]
> So I'd like a single command which I could put into a newbies .emacs file:

Why not just make a couple of pre-defined .emacs files for users
coming from other backgrouns, and post them up on EmacwWiki (or
whatever)?

Then you could have a coming-from-windows.emacs and a
coming-from-mac.emacs or used-ms-word-alot.emacs, etc etc.

/Mathias

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Corneli]

   > the idea is to live in emacs when possible (i.e., all the time).

   I do (Except for w3, which never get to work. )

The standard response to this is "use emacs/w3m". (emacs-w3m.namazu.org)

Personally, probably because I'm habituated to it, I find it easier to
use Lynx with emacsclient for browsing and editing webforms
(respectively).  Maybe I should make a concerted effort to switch to
w3m though.

Another extreme possibility would be to use html2text or 'lynx -dump'
(or something similar) as one's primary "browser" and various scripts
and special modes for uploading.  

But in any event there are those %$!* sites that neither the OTB nor
w3m (nor html2text) can handle.  If you live in Emacs all the time,
you'll be living without these pages.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Floyd L. Davidson]

"Sean Richards" <somebody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes:
>
>> I came up with a function to list only function key bindings.
>> All I need do is remember that a command exists, and that F2
>> will print a list of bindings to show how to access the command.
>
>Hi Floyd,
>
>Can you post the elisp that you use for this?

Sure... just be aware that I am no eLisp guru and that I use
XEmacs.  I'll post all the key bindings as I use it in XEmacs,
and the functions that I use in XEmacs (21.4.15).  That part I
know is operational.

I also have the same function for GNU's Emacs (21.3), but I have
not used it other than just having coded it up.  Hence it may
have quirks that shouldn't be there, or otherwise need honing.
(For example the XEmacs function has an ugly hack that does a
better job of sorting the results.  The Emacs version doesn't
have the ugly hack, just an ugly display...)

Probably this should be made into a package, but I have it all
defined in my ~/.xemacs/init.el file.

First there are a raft of key bindings that go with it.  The
idea is that F2 shows all fkey bindings, Sh-F2 shows all Sh-fkey
bindings, C-F2 shows all C-fkey bindings, and so on for every
available prefix keymap.

>From the init.el file (note that only the related key bindings are being
shown here, and in fact each keymap probably has other bindings too):

(defun  fld-describe-fkeys (&optional d1) ())

;;;
;;;  Global Function keymap
;;;
(define-key global-map  [f1]  'help-command)
(define-key global-map  [f2]  'fld-describe-fkeys)

;;;
;;;  Help keymap
;;;
(define-key help-map "0"  'fld-describe-all-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "1"  'fld-describe-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "2"  'fld-describe-sh-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "3"  'fld-describe-m-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "4"  'fld-describe-m-qstn-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "5"  'fld-describe-c-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "6"  'fld-describe-c-c-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "7"  'fld-describe-c-h-fkeys)
(define-key help-map [f2] 'fld-describe-c-h-fkeys)
(define-key help-map "8"  'fld-describe-c-x-fkeys)

;;;; The above allows this to be accessed not just with the F2
;;;; key, but also with F1, which of course prompts for further
;;;; input.  Any of the above will then run the specified
;;;; command.

;;;
;;;  ESC + Function keymap
;;;
(define-key esc-map  [f1]  'help-command)
(define-key esc-map  [f2]  'fld-describe-m-fkeys)

;;;
;;; Sh-Function keymap
;;;
(define-key global-map  [(shift f1)]  'help-command)
(define-key global-map  [(shift f2)]  'fld-describe-sh-fkeys)

;;;
;;; C-Function keymap
;;;
(define-key global-map  [(control f1)]  'help-command)
(define-key global-map  [(control f2)]  'fld-describe-c-fkeys)

;;;
;;; C-c Function keymap
;;;
(define-key Ctl-C-keymap  [f1]  'help-command)
(define-key Ctl-C-keymap  [f2]  'fld-describe-c-c-fkeys)

;;;
;;; C-x Function keymap
;;;
(define-key ctl-x-map  [f1]  'help-command)
(define-key ctl-x-map  [f2]  'fld-describe-c-x-fkeys)

;;;
;;; Define at least one fkey in each keymap, just to
;;; show up when fld-describe-all-fkeys is called.
;;;
(define-key Ctl-C-keymap [f1]    'keyboard-quit)
(define-key ctl-x-map    [f1]    'keyboard-quit)
(global-set-key [(shift f1)]     'keyboard-quit)
(global-set-key [(control f1)]   'keyboard-quit)

;;;  Individual functions to describe each function key set.
;;;  This is necessary in order that the key binding listed
;;;  for each f2 function key is meaningful.  If a lambda
;;;  function is used the binding shows up as "Anonymous
;;;  Compiled Function" in XEmacs and ?? in GNU Emacs.

(defun fld-describe-all-fkeys ()
"Describe All Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 0))

(defun fld-describe-sh-fkeys ()
"Describe Shift-Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 2))

(defun fld-describe-m-fkeys ()
"Describe Meta-Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 3))

(defun fld-describe-m-qstn-fkeys ()
"Describe Meta-? Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 4))

(defun fld-describe-c-fkeys ()
"Describe Cntl-Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 5))

(defun fld-describe-c-c-fkeys ()
"Describe C-c Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 6))

(defun fld-describe-c-h-fkeys ()
"Describe C-h Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 7))

(defun fld-describe-c-x-fkeys ()
"Describe C-x Function Key Bindings.  See fld-describe-fkeys."
(interactive)
(fld-describe-fkeys 8))

;;;
;;;  Show function key bindings
;;;
(defun fld-describe-fkeys (&optional flag)
"Describe function key bindings.  With optional flag, only a selected
set of function keys are described.  The following table indicates
which flag correspond to which sets of function keys:
     Flag    Key Sequence
      0            all
      1      f1     - f12
      2      Sh-f1  - Sh-f12
      3      M-f1   - M-f12
      4      M-? f1 - M-? f12
      5      C-f1   - C-f12
      6      C-c f1 - C-c f12
      7      C-h f1 - C-h f12
      8      C-x f1 - C-x f12"

  (interactive "p")

  (with-displaying-help-buffer (lambda ()
    (let ((buffer (current-buffer))
          (minor minor-mode-map-alist)
          (extent-maps (mapcar-extents
                        'extent-keymap
                        nil (current-buffer) (point) (point) nil 'keymap))
          (local (current-local-map))
          (pattern  "f[0-9][ \t0-2]")
          (shadow '()))

      (cond
       ((eq flag 1) (setq pattern "^f[0-9][ \t0-2]"      ))
       ((eq flag 2) (setq pattern "^Sh-f[0-9][ \t0-2]"   ))
       ((eq flag 3) (setq pattern "^M-f[0-9][ \t0-2]"    ))
       ((eq flag 4) (setq pattern "^M-\\? f[0-9][ \t0-2]"))
       ((eq flag 5) (setq pattern "^C-f[0-9][ \t0-2]"    ))
       ((eq flag 6) (setq pattern "^C-c f[0-9][ \t0-2]"  ))
       ((eq flag 7) (setq pattern "^C-h f[0-9][ \t0-2]"  ))
       ((eq flag 8) (setq pattern "^C-x f[0-9][ \t0-2]"  ))
       (t           (setq pattern "f[0-9][ \t0-2]"       )))

      (set-buffer standard-output)
      ;; find all key bindings
      (while extent-maps
        (describe-bindings-internal
         (car extent-maps) nil shadow nil nil)
        (setq shadow (cons (car extent-maps) shadow)
              extent-maps (cdr extent-maps)))
      (while minor
        (let ((sym (car (car minor)))
              (map (cdr (car minor))))
          (if (symbol-value-in-buffer sym buffer nil)
              (progn
                (describe-bindings-internal map nil shadow nil nil)
                (setq shadow (cons map shadow))))
          (setq minor (cdr minor))))
      (if local
          (progn
            (describe-bindings-internal local nil shadow nil nil)
            (setq shadow (cons local shadow))))
      (describe-bindings-internal (current-global-map) nil shadow nil nil)
      (when function-key-map
        (describe-bindings-internal function-key-map nil nil nil nil))
      ;; edit out all but what we want to see
      (save-excursion
        (let ((end 0))
          (untabify (point-min) (point-max))
          (goto-char (point-max))
          (while (not (eq (point) (point-min)))
            (progn
              (delete-blank-lines)  ; gets all but one
              (delete-blank-lines)  ; gets that one
              (beginning-of-line)

              ;; empty line (at eof)
              (when (eq (point) (point-at-eol)) (forward-line -1))

              ;; only search the first 10 characters
              (setq end (point-at-eol))
              (when (< (+ 10 (point)) (point-at-eol)) (setq end (+ 10 (point))))

              ;; look for function key designators
              (when (not (re-search-forward pattern end t))
                (progn  ; kill everything that isn't
                  (beginning-of-line)
                  (setq end (point-at-eol 1))
                  (delete-region (point) end)))
              (forward-line -1)
              (beginning-of-line))))
        (delete-region (point-min) (point-at-eol))
        ;; reconfigure our list so that it sorts the right way
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (while (re-search-forward "f1 [^ ]" nil t)
          (progn
            (goto-char (+ 2 (match-beginning 0)))
            (insert "z")))
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f1 " "f01 " nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f2" "f02" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f3" "f03" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f4" "f04" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f5" "f05" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f6" "f06" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f7" "f07" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f8" "f08" nil)
        (goto-char (point-min))
        (replace-string "f9" "f09" nil)
        (sort-lines nil (point-min) (point-max)))

      ;; now put back the right names
      (goto-char (point-min))
      (replace-string "f0" "f" nil)
      (goto-char (point-min))
      (replace-string "f1z" "f1")

      ;; give the buffer an appropriate title
      (let ((title "Function Key Bindings"))
        (cond
         ((eq flag 1) (setq title ""        ))
         ((eq flag 2) (setq title "Shift-"  ))
         ((eq flag 3) (setq title "Meta-"   ))
         ((eq flag 4) (setq title "Meta-? " ))
         ((eq flag 5) (setq title "Cntl-"   ))
         ((eq flag 6) (setq title "Cntl-c " ))
         ((eq flag 7) (setq title "Cntl-h " ))
         ((eq flag 8) (setq title "Cntl-x " ))
         (t           (setq title "All "    )))

        (goto-char (point-min))
        (insert (concat "  " title "Function Key Bindings\n")))
        (set-buffer buffer)
        standard-output))
    "Function Key Bindings"))

The Emacs function:

;;;
;;;  Show function key bindings
;;;
(defun fld-describe-fkeys (&optional flag)
"Describe function key bindings.  With optional flag, only a selected
set of function keys are described.  The following table indicates
which flag correspond to which sets of function keys:
     Flag    Key Sequence
      0            all
      1      <f1>       - <f12>
      2      <S-f1>     - <S-f12>
      3      ESC <f1>   - ESC <f12
      4      ESC ? <f1> - ESC ? <f12>
      5      <C-f1>     - <C-f12>
      6      C-c <f1>   - C-c <f12>
      7      C-h <f1>   - C-h <f12>
      8      C-x <f1>   - C-x <f12>"

  (interactive "p")
  (let ((buffer (current-buffer))
       (prefix nil)
       (pattern  ""))

    (cond
     ((eq flag 1) (setq pattern "^<f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"         ))
     ((eq flag 2) (setq pattern "^<S-f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"       ))
     ((eq flag 3) (setq pattern "^ESC <f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"     ))
     ((eq flag 4) (setq pattern "^ESC \\? <f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]" ))
     ((eq flag 5) (setq pattern "^<C-f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"       ))
     ((eq flag 6) (setq pattern "^C-c <f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"     ))
     ((eq flag 7) (setq pattern "^C-h <f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"     ))
     ((eq flag 8) (setq pattern "^C-x <f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"     ))
     (t           (setq pattern "[<-]f[0-9][>1-2][> \t]"       )))

    (setq buffer (current-buffer))
    (with-current-buffer buffer
      (describe-bindings-internal  nil prefix))
    (with-current-buffer "*Help*"
      (help-setup-xref
       (list #'describe-bindings prefix buffer)
       (interactive-p)))
    (with-current-buffer "*Help*"
      (progn
        (view-mode -1)
        (let ((end 0))
          (goto-char (point-max))
          (while (not (eq (point) (point-min)))
            (progn
              (delete-blank-lines)  ; gets all but one
              (delete-blank-lines)  ; gets that one
              (beginning-of-line)

              ;; empty lines (at eof)
              (while (eq (point) (point-at-eol)) (forward-line -1))

              ;; only search the first 10 characters
              (setq end (point-at-eol))
              (when (< (+ 10 (point)) (point-at-eol)) (setq end (+ 10 (point))))

              ;; look for function key designators
              (when (not (re-search-forward pattern end t))
                  (progn  ; kill everything that isn't
                    (setq end (point-at-eol nil))
                    (delete-region (point) end))))
            (beginning-of-line)
            (forward-line -1))
          (delete-region (point-min) (point-at-eol))
          (replace-string "f1>" "f01>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f2>" "f02>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f3>" "f03>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f4>" "f04>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f5>" "f05>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f6>" "f06>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f7>" "f07>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f8>" "f08>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (replace-string "f9>" "f09>" nil (point-min)(point-max))
          (sort-lines nil (point-min) (point-max))

          ;; give the buffer an appropriate title
          (let ((title "Function Key Bindings"))
            (cond
             ((eq flag 1) (setq title ""        ))
             ((eq flag 2) (setq title "Shift-"  ))
             ((eq flag 3) (setq title "Meta-"   ))
             ((eq flag 4) (setq title "Meta-? " ))
             ((eq flag 5) (setq title "Cntl-"   ))
             ((eq flag 6) (setq title "Cntl-c " ))
             ((eq flag 7) (setq title "Cntl-h " ))
             ((eq flag 8) (setq title "Cntl-x " ))
             (t           (setq title "All "    )))

            (goto-char (point-min))
            (insert (concat "  " title "Function Key Bindings\n"))))))))

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> You are right. BTW, could I build a UI with drag'n'drop
> possibilities inside emacs?

i don't know for sure but it seems plausible.  certainly
you can place widgets in a buffer that are mouse friendly
(see: customize and the help system).  probably the only
real challenge would be sliders.

> But I have already. 

ok.  i thought i saw something about python + tk.
maybe that was an old or cached page?

thi

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Klaus Straubinger]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> wrote:

> w3, which never get to work.

Why not? What's the problem, in more detail?

I have managed to get it to work. Some pieces of "defadvice" I deemed
necessary for my habits, but essentially it should work as is.

Of course, not all pages out there will produce something useful in
Emacs/W3 but that's true for all text-based WWW software.

-- 
Klaus Straubinger

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> writes:
>
>> Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:
>> 
>> > Me too. But, the students I force to use emacs for simulation
>> > (http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/dna) don't like it.
>> 
>> if this software produces graphs or other images, you can display
>> them in an emacs buffer.  that is all the UI you will need to trick
>> students into enjoying the fast edit cycle.
>
> You are right. BTW, could I build a UI with drag'n'drop
> possibilities inside emacs?

CVS Emacs understands the "drop" part of the X Drag'n'drop
specification.  Drop files in a dired buffer, and they get moved
there.  Drop them in most other windows, and they get opened.

Of course, _inside_ of Emacs is all up to your Elisp programming
skills.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[nfreimann]

--- Joe Corneli <jcorneli@math.utexas.edu> wrote:
> 
> Personally, probably because I'm habituated to it, I
> find it easier to
> use Lynx with emacsclient for browsing and editing
...
> Another extreme possibility would be to use
> html2text or 'lynx -dump'
> (or something similar) as one's primary "browser"

Joe, we aren't living in the 80ths anymore! 

A seamless web browser feature for previewing the
content of a HTML document,  like Editplus does using
OLE and Internet Explorer, is what we really need in
the third Millenia, and not redirecting the output of
inferior text mode browsers into an emacs frame.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Klaus Straubinger]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> wrote:

> A seamless web browser feature for previewing the content of a HTML
> document [...] is what we really need

... which is what Emacs/W3 provides.

> not redirecting the output of inferior text mode browsers into an
> emacs frame.

Emacs is mainly a text manipulation software package, after all.

I find it very convenient to have the text part of HTML documents in an
Emacs buffer, ready to be used for several tasks.

-- 
Klaus Straubinger

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Joe Corneli]

   > Another extreme possibility would be to use
   > html2text or 'lynx -dump'
   > (or something similar) as one's primary "browser"

   Joe, we aren't living in the 80ths anymore! 

Sadly, I'm not entirely sure about that.  Michael Jackson
is a big celeb. again, who'd have thunk it? 

   A seamless web browser feature for previewing the
   content of a HTML document,  like Editplus does using
   OLE and Internet Explorer, is what we really need in
   the third Millenia, and not redirecting the output of
   inferior text mode browsers into an emacs frame.

Why not have both?  I hacked together a totally excellent text browser
redirection program last night[*], now its your turn.

Actually, there is already something like this for previewing
javascript[**], so I'd assume that there is also something for
previewing HTML out on the market too.

[*] watch for this on gnu-emacs-sources
[**] see thread http://mozdev.org/pipermail/conkeror/2004-November/000006.html

RE: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Drew Adams]

    One big advantage for me of Emacs over IDE editors is
    the way it lays out its windows. It is very useful when programming to
    have two windows side by side, or above and below each other. The only
    way to do this in an IDE editor is to manually resize all your windows
    to fit (then you still have too much space wasted for extra title and
    status bars) or to set it to tiled (and have all windows that you have
    open tiled).

I don't want to get in the middle of this making-Emacs-friendly thread. This
is only to let you know that if you do prefer to use window-manager
windows - that is, what Emacs calls frames - for everything, then you can
still easily tile your buffers. You do not need to resize them manually.

See my library `frame-cmds.el'
(http://www.emacswiki.org/elisp/frame-cmds.el) for commands
`tile-frames-horizontally' and `tile-frames-vertically'. These commands have
an option (`C-u') for tiling only two frames that you designate; otherwise,
they tile only the visible (non-iconified) frames. So you do have control
over what gets tiled.

Another convenience is being able to resize a frame incrementally, using the
keyboard (`C-M-' arrow keys) instead of the mouse. The commands for these
key bindings are in my library `fit-frame.el':
http://www.emacswiki.org/elisp/fit-frame.el.

Personally, I use Emacs frames, not Emacs windows, for everything. I use
`ediff' to compare buffers in separate frames (that I have tiled
horizontally or vertically). I also have a separate standalone frame for the
minibuffer (the other frames have no minibuffer area) - this stretches along
the entire width of my display, at the bottom. I don't use the toolbar, so I
don't waste space with that (actually, I use my popup toolbar:
http://www.emacswiki.org/elisp/tool-bar-plus.el). Yes, I do lose the menu
space for each frame - you can of course get rid of that too, if you like.
For instance, you might decide to use a standalone "menu" frame.

 - Drew

P.S. There is a problem with the above frame-cmds.el link today. I've
reported the problem to the EmacsWiki maintainer, so I expect it will be
fixed soon. You can get to the same file today with this link instead:
http://www.emacswiki.org/elisp/frame-cmds.el.gz.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Peter K. Lee]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> newbies to get acquainted with it.
>
> I don't even recommend emacs anymore when someone asks me for a good
> editor, because they always complain about emacs being too foreign,
> non-standard, etc.
>
> This newbie mode would be a simple command which when activated would
> change default emacs settings, keybindings to as similar to a more
> usual  editor as possible.
>
> This would include for example keybindings which are familiar for new
> users:
>
> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.
>
> Menus should be activated with Alt+<key>, e.g. Alt-F for File menu. I
> know  that Alt-F (Meta-F) is forward word, but I don't think a newbie
> would miss  it too much. pc-selection-mode should be the default, so
> that he can move  around with arrows + ctrl, shift, etc.
>
> I know there could be a problem with these bindings if emacs is run in
> a  terminal, but newbies rarely do that, a graphical environment is
> more  common nowadays.
>
> Useful general settings should be turned on by default. column
> numbers,  global font lock, etc.
>
> So I'd like a single command which I could put into a newbies .emacs file:
>
> 	(newbie-mode)

I think this is a great idea.  But if the real goal is to present a
"alternate-editor-compatibility" mode for ease of
introduction/transition, I think the (newbie-mode) should have few
further additions than simple binding/interface changes.

For one, if they are in (newbie-mode), every time they issue
(non-standard/non-emacs-like/whatever) key binding, they get a chunk
of their mini-buffer grab their window real-estate and EXPLAIN to them
what the REAL key binding should be, and why it makes sense.  Also, if
the key binding under use is in *place* of another, let them know what
it USED to be.

Actually, I don't think it's a bad idea to have this take place EVERY
TIME they put in a key sequence that maps to a command.  Just so they
know what they did every time they issue a key stroke.

I realize there's C-h xxx family of tools for this, but it's rather
annoying to type in C-h blah every time you want to find out what a
particular key sequence maps to.

And this will only take place if they have (newbie-mode) in their
.emacs (or interactively do M-x newbie-mode) so nothing is being
dumbed down for 'veteran users' as some in previous threads seem to
suggest.

i.e. if they press the left arrow key, the mini-buffer would let them
know they can do the exact same thing pressing C-b.  Not only that,
let them know you can go back a word by pressing M-b.  If you wanted
to go back to the beginning of the line, press C-a.  If you wanted to
go back to the beginning of the buffer, press C-x [.

I'm sure you can think of plenty of commands related to what most
editor users think of the four directional arrows.  Just 4 keys and
what emacs empowers users beyond simple cursor movement would be a
fine introduction to the "superior emacs way of doing things".

I think the advantage we have here is that most editors don't have a
whole lot of key bindings (well, at least based on the emacs
standard...).  So, it really shouldn't be too hard to put something
like this together.

I personally find hunting down 'how to use' information frustrating.
We should be able to use preexisting knowledge of users to
preemptively provide information they are looking for, and retrain
them on the correct way of using an editor. :)

> and this would set everything, so that a new user can perform any
> simple  editing operation using only the knowledge he brought from
> other  systems/editors. And when he sees that emacs is not the editor
> from hell  then he might be more interested to learn more about it.

Seriously, I also thought emacs was an editor from hell when I first
fired it up, and couldn't figure out how to exit the damn thing.

Only through sheer will power and years of sub standard emacs usage
has made this journey worthwhile at the end.

I have no desire to debate whether the above is in essence a
prerequisite to proper emacs appreciation/usage. ;)

So how about it?

------------
Peter K. Lee

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
> Date: 21 Mar 2005 09:11:10 +0100
> 
> > On what OS?  Under which window manager?
> 
> Windows XP

I'd try setting w32-pass-alt-to-system non-nil, but if that doesn't
help, I think this is a bug specific to the Windows port.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Miles Bader]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:
> A seamless web browser feature for previewing the
> content of a HTML document,  like Editplus does using
> OLE and Internet Explorer, is what we really need in
> the third Millenia, and not redirecting the output of
> inferior text mode browsers into an emacs frame.

Who's this "we"?

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Cristian Gutierrez]

Este sabado, Floyd L. Davidson dijo:
> jasonr (Jason Rumney) @  f2s.com wrote:

[...]

>>The problem with any suggestion like this, is that the idea of a
>>single "standard" set of keybindings is mythical.
>
> Nooooo!  The *EMACS* keybindings are the only ones that make any
> sense at all for an Emacs editor.

And everywhere else!

(at least readline-enabled and GTK-based apps are supportive of the TRUE
keybindings; even others -like Eclipse- have paid due homage as well)

-- 
Cristian Gutierrez			http://www.dcc.uchile.cl/~crgutier
crgutier[@]dcc.uchile.cl                        Jabber:crgutier@jabber.org

CChheecckk yyoouurr dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh..

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> writes:

> ok.  i thought i saw something about python + tk.
> maybe that was an old or cached page?

Ah, no, just the only solution I saw I would be able to handle at
that time.
-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I'd try setting w32-pass-alt-to-system non-nil, but if that doesn't
> help, I think this is a bug specific to the Windows port.

I have that so maybe it's a bug.
-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> a bit.  But please, _describe_ these exotic unknown programs rather than
> 
I think I did already. But the users prefer an interface like:
http://www.winedt.com/HTML/snap.html

In addition I would like to be able to something like
http://eclipse.org/articles/Article-GEF-editor/gef-schema-editor.html
inside emacs. 

And I would not like to use any of them, because emacs is superior to
winedt and eclipse doesn't any more easy to learn to use than
emacs. Neither of them have more than one mode I could benefit from
using. 

> I think the man wants a horizontal scroll bar.

I think I have learned to live without it...

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[David Kastrup]

Brian Elmegaard <brian@rk-speed-rugby.dk> writes:

> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
>
>> a bit.  But please, _describe_ these exotic unknown programs rather than
>> 
> I think I did already. But the users prefer an interface like:
> http://www.winedt.com/HTML/snap.html

Well, then let them use it.  Why should you force Emacs onto them if
they don't want it?

While I think that it might be nice if Emacs would abstract interface
elements internally to a degree to make it possible to employ most of
the standard widgetry available nowadays, this is going to be a slow
process at best, and it has to be done carefully in order not to tie
oneself too closely to the technology du jour: Emacs' life span has
been _much_ longer than that of its host systems.

> In addition I would like to be able to something like
> http://eclipse.org/articles/Article-GEF-editor/gef-schema-editor.html
> inside emacs.

That looks so much like a graphical application that it appears
completely pointless to have it "in Emacs".  Tighter integration with
the graphic creating software might be desirable, like being able to
use Emacs for editing text widgets, but the application itself is
probably better left apart from Emacs.

preview-latex <URL:http://preview-latex.sourceforge.net> will provide
graphical elements in a more or less accessible way, but you still
edit the source code, not the elements themselves.  And Emacs is,
after all, a source code editor.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Sean Richards]

floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes:

> "Sean Richards" <somebody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes:
>>
>>> I came up with a function to list only function key bindings.
>>> All I need do is remember that a command exists, and that F2
>>> will print a list of bindings to show how to access the command.
>>
>>Hi Floyd,
>>
>>Can you post the elisp that you use for this?
>
> Sure... just be aware that I am no eLisp guru and that I use
> XEmacs.  I'll post all the key bindings as I use it in XEmacs,
> and the functions that I use in XEmacs (21.4.15).  That part I
> know is operational.
>

[...]

Thanks Floyd

Sean

-- 
"Hver sin smak", sa vintapperen, han drakk mens de andre sloss."

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Brian Elmegaard]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Well, then let them use it.  Why should you force Emacs onto them if
> they don't want it?

Because I prefer to develop an emacs mode instead of a winedt one and
because they should use BAT.

> process at best, and it has to be done carefully in order not to tie
> oneself too closely to the technology du jour: Emacs' life span has

Good points.

> use Emacs for editing text widgets, but the application itself is
> probably better left apart from Emacs.

all right then.

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html

Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly

[Nathan Hess]

PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:

> Exactly. My heretic idea is to rethink the whole Emacs interface
> (defaults, keybindings). Make the default Emacs very similary to modern
> CUA-based applications. Give less reason for the newbies to give up in
> disgust.

As I remember, this thread began with a request for some sort of help
for newbies involving default keybindings, etc.  The original desire
seemed to be to be able to put 

        (newbie-mode)

in people's .emacs files, and have Emacs operate with function keys
doing "useful" things, etc.  

It seems to me that there is nothing in such an effort that requires the
default behavior of Emacs to change at all; the new bindings and
functionality would only take place in newbie mode.  So, maybe the
original poster could begin by writing and posting elisp code for such a
newbie mode that begins down that road, and others can expand/enhance it.

That activity might be more fruitful than going back and forth about
default, out-of-the-box Emacs behavior.

--woodstock
-- 
It's funny how you can go through life thinking you've seen
everything...  Then you suddenly realize there are millions of things
you've never seen before. -- Linus, to Charlie Brown                   _~~.
                                                                      (_" /
                                         joewoodstock@austin.rr.com     '`