Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

I noticed this on emacs-diffs:

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> +etc/future-bug
> + - doesn't need a humourless disclaimer, because Karl Fogel says we
> + can consider it part of Emacs, and he has a blanker disclaimer for
> + Emacs changes. (email to rgm "[Emacs-commit] emacs/etc future-bug",
> + 2007028)

and looked at etc/future-bug -- very funny, but I never noticed it
before (as etc is quite populated/polluted).

I suggest moving it into etc/JOKES, as I would assume more users would
see it there.

I also suggest moving DEVEL.HUMOR into JOKES as well -- I see no
reason to keep it separate.

BTW, some of the headers in JOKES could be trimmed to make the
file easier to read.   [e.g. use the DEVEL.HUMOR format]

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:

> I also suggest moving DEVEL.HUMOR into JOKES as well -- I see no
> reason to keep it separate.

I'd rather have them separate. JOKES contains all kind of jokes, while
DEVEL.HUMOR is always emacs-devel related, and so more fit to us than
as general humor.

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[David Kastrup]

"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>
>> I also suggest moving DEVEL.HUMOR into JOKES as well -- I see no
>> reason to keep it separate.
>
> I'd rather have them separate. JOKES contains all kind of jokes,
> while DEVEL.HUMOR is always emacs-devel related, and so more fit to
> us than as general humor.

But we need to teach Emacs-related humor to the general public, or
they won't appreciate working with Emacs.  You need a certain amount
of Emaczen to fully appreciate messages like from

C-h w ignore RET

which is, in its depth of observation and the underlying GUI
philosophy, nothing short of brilliant.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>
>> I also suggest moving DEVEL.HUMOR into JOKES as well -- I see no
>> reason to keep it separate.
>
> I'd rather have them separate. JOKES contains all kind of jokes, while
> DEVEL.HUMOR is always emacs-devel related, and so more fit to us than
> as general humor.

They are both jokes/humor related to Emacs, so I don't see a need for
separate files.

Suppose we wanted C-h C-j to show the "jokes about Emacs", the user
would only see 1/2 or 1/3 of what's there (if it shows JOKES).

BTW, a better file name for all of it seems to be HUMOR.EMACS or
JOKES.EMACS to emphasize that the jokes are about emacs, and not just
a random collection of jokes.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:

> They are both jokes/humor related to Emacs

The point is, the content of JOKES is understandable and potentially
funny for anyone (at least, anyone geek enough). A great deal of
DEVEL.HUMOR is not very funny unless you happen to closely follow
emacs-devel; take Handa-san's wonderful rendition of "Imagine" against
unibyte, for example, or Stefan's joke about the "u"s in colour,
behaviour, etc. (which he deadpaned just when I was homogenizing
spelling all across the sources).

Now that I think of it, I'm a bit surprised I didn't put the file
under admin/ :)

> BTW, a better file name for all of it seems to be HUMOR.EMACS or
> JOKES.EMACS to emphasize that the jokes are about emacs, and not just
> a random collection of jokes.

In the case of DEVEL.HUMOR, I don't particularly like the name; I used
what was suggested to me.

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 2/28/07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> But we need to teach Emacs-related humor to the general public, or
> they won't appreciate working with Emacs.

Let's leave them reach illumination on their own. One person's satori
is another person's bore. :)

> You need a certain amount
> of Emaczen to fully appreciate messages like from
>
> C-h w ignore RET

ignore is on <language-change>, <rwindow>, <lwindow>, <mouse-movement>

??

> which is, in its depth of observation and the underlying GUI
> philosophy, nothing short of brilliant.

What else did you expect from where-is?

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[David Kastrup]

"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2/28/07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> But we need to teach Emacs-related humor to the general public, or
>> they won't appreciate working with Emacs.
>
> Let's leave them reach illumination on their own. One person's satori
> is another person's bore. :)
>
>> You need a certain amount
>> of Emaczen to fully appreciate messages like from
>>
>> C-h w ignore RET
>
> ignore is on <language-change>, <rwindow>, <lwindow>, <mouse-movement>
>
> ??
>
>> which is, in its depth of observation and the underlying GUI
>> philosophy, nothing short of brilliant.
>
> What else did you expect from where-is?

Oh, for me it just says

ignore is on <mouse-movement>

which I find much more appealing in its message.  Your Emacs
recognizes a language-change key?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 2/28/07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> Your Emacs
> recognizes a language-change key?

Yes. In the default Windows setup, with multiple keyboards defined,
left shift + left alt generates a language-change event.

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>
>> They are both jokes/humor related to Emacs
>
> The point is, the content of JOKES is understandable and potentially
> funny for anyone (at least, anyone geek enough). A great deal of
> DEVEL.HUMOR is not very funny 

Actually, I find the stuff in DEVEL.HUMOR is a good deal more funny
than what's in JOKES.  And some of it has _very funny_ on its own.

>                               unless you happen to closely follow
> emacs-devel; take Handa-san's wonderful rendition of "Imagine" against
> unibyte, for example, or Stefan's joke about the "u"s in colour,
> behaviour, etc. (which he deadpaned just when I was homogenizing
> spelling all across the sources).

Why do you say those are "not very funny" unless you closely follow
emacs-devel?   I think they are fun on their own.

> Now that I think of it, I'm a bit surprised I didn't put the file
> under admin/ :)

Showing to people that it can be fun to follow emacs-devel is a good
thing. "admin" doesn't sound like a fun place to look :-)

Do we include it in the tarball?  

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 2/28/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:

> Actually, I find the stuff in DEVEL.HUMOR is a good deal more funny
> than what's in JOKES.

I do, too. But I'm biased.

> And some of it has _very funny_ on its own.
[...]
> Why do you say those are "not very funny" unless you closely follow
> emacs-devel?   I think they are fun on their own.

You're on this list. You're biased too ;-)

> Showing to people that it can be fun to follow emacs-devel is a good
> thing. "admin" doesn't sound like a fun place to look :-)

With this, I agree.

> Do we include it in the tarball?

Yep.

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Glenn Morris]

Kim F. Storm wrote:

> and looked at etc/future-bug -- very funny, but I never noticed it
> before (as etc is quite populated/polluted).
>
> I suggest moving it into etc/JOKES, as I would assume more users
> would see it there.

I think future-bug is made funnier because it doesn't hit you over the
head and say "this is a joke", but rather reads like a normal bug
report. Putting it in a file labelled JOKES would spoil it a bit by
making you expect a joke from the start.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a future version of Emacs _did_
have time-travel capability, so maybe this is a real bug report that
just went a little astray...

I agree that /etc in general looks like a mess, or (charitably) an old
attic where you may stumble across interesting things. I think
tree-widget/ should be in images/, and some other subdirectories (eg
tutorials/, refcards/, ...?) would help tidy it up. But I don't see
any need to do any of that at this stage.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Glenn Morris]

Kim F. Storm wrote:

> BTW, a better file name for all of it seems to be HUMOR.EMACS or
> JOKES.EMACS to emphasize that the jokes are about emacs, and not just
> a random collection of jokes.

Personally I dislike the existing name because it spells "humour"
incorrectly, and shouts while it does it. Just had to get that off my
chest... ;)

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:57:13 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a future version of Emacs _did_
> have time-travel capability

At that time, but no earlier, it would be prudent to remove the file.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> I think future-bug is made funnier because it doesn't hit you over the
> head and say "this is a joke", but rather reads like a normal bug
> report. Putting it in a file labelled JOKES would spoil it a bit by
> making you expect a joke from the start.

Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.

Besides, I strongly doubt many people would browse etc/ for
interesting stuff - in particular if you use a pre-installed
emacs not many users would be looking in /usr/share/emacs/22.1/etc
(or whereever it is located).

That's also why binding C-h j to show the JOKES file would make sense.

And C-h D to show etc/DEBUG for debugging.

--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 3/1/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:

> Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.

I agree with Glenn. It's funnier *because* it is not in JOKES.

             Juanma

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Richard Stallman]

I would rather not rearrange these files.  Let's leave them alone.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Karl Fogel]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a future version of Emacs _did_
> have time-travel capability, so maybe this is a real bug report that
> just went a little astray...

Indeed, it is impossible for us to settle now the question of whether
or not it is a joke.  Oh, wait...

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 3/1/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>
>> Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.
>
> I agree with Glenn. It's funnier *because* it is not in JOKES.
>
>             Juanma

Still, it's been there since 1999, and I just noticed it yesterday.
How funny is that :-)

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 3/1/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.
>>
>> I agree with Glenn. It's funnier *because* it is not in JOKES.
>>
>>             Juanma
>
> Still, it's been there since 1999, and I just noticed it yesterday.
> How funny is that :-)

It hasn't been there since 1999 until you noticed.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
>
>> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 3/1/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.
>>>
>>> I agree with Glenn. It's funnier *because* it is not in JOKES.
>>>
>>>             Juanma
>>
>> Still, it's been there since 1999, and I just noticed it yesterday.
>> How funny is that :-)
>
> It hasn't been there since 1999 until you noticed.

Right!  It's only been there since 2199, which probably explains
why I didn't notice it before.

But the timestamp in the CVS log confused me.  I guess the version
of CVS used to install the file has a --time-travel option too.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Besides, I strongly doubt many people would browse etc/ for
> interesting stuff - in particular if you use a pre-installed
> emacs not many users would be looking in /usr/share/emacs/22.1/etc
> (or whereever it is located).
>
> That's also why binding C-h j to show the JOKES file would make sense.
>
> And C-h D to show etc/DEBUG for debugging.

Here is a small patch for help.el which provides the following additional
help commands:

C-h C-j  => Display jokes  (JOKES + future-bug + DEVEL.HUMOR)

C-h C-o  => Display other info sources  (MORE.STUFF)

C-h D    => Debugging GNU Emacs  (DEBUG)


It also enables goto-address for all such files, so the ULR's
are properly highlighted and can be activated with the mouse.

BTW, why does MORE.STUFF put "URL:" in front of all URL's ?
goto-address does not need it, and it just looks plain ugly to me.


*** help.el	28 Feb 2007 23:33:46 +0100	1.326
--- help.el	01 Mar 2007 13:43:49 +0100	
***************
*** 50,57 ****
--- 50,59 ----
      (define-key map "\C-d" 'describe-distribution)
      (define-key map "\C-e" 'view-emacs-problems)
      (define-key map "\C-f" 'view-emacs-FAQ)
+     (define-key map "\C-j" 'view-emacs-jokes)
      (define-key map "\C-m" 'view-order-manuals)
      (define-key map "\C-n" 'view-emacs-news)
+     (define-key map "\C-o" 'view-other-info-sources)
      (define-key map "\C-p" 'describe-project)
      (define-key map "\C-t" 'view-todo)
      (define-key map "\C-w" 'describe-no-warranty)
***************
*** 60,65 ****
--- 62,68 ----
      (define-key map "\C-\\" 'describe-input-method)
  
      (define-key map "C" 'describe-coding-system)
+     (define-key map "D" 'view-emacs-debugging)
      (define-key map "F" 'Info-goto-emacs-command-node)
      (define-key map "I" 'describe-input-method)
      (define-key map "K" 'Info-goto-emacs-key-command-node)
***************
*** 178,184 ****
  (defalias 'help-for-help 'help-for-help-internal)
  ;; It can't find this, but nobody will look.
  (make-help-screen help-for-help-internal
!   "a b c C e f F i I k C-k l L m p r s t v w C-c C-d C-f C-n C-p C-t C-w . or ? :"
    "You have typed %THIS-KEY%, the help character.  Type a Help option:
  \(Use SPC or DEL to scroll through this text.  Type \\<help-map>\\[help-quit] to exit the Help command.)
  
--- 181,187 ----
  (defalias 'help-for-help 'help-for-help-internal)
  ;; It can't find this, but nobody will look.
  (make-help-screen help-for-help-internal
!   "Type a help option: [abcCdDefFiIkKlLmprstvw.] C-[cdefjmnoptw] or ?"
    "You have typed %THIS-KEY%, the help character.  Type a Help option:
  \(Use SPC or DEL to scroll through this text.  Type \\<help-map>\\[help-quit] to exit the Help command.)
  
***************
*** 192,197 ****
--- 195,201 ----
  d  apropos-documentation.  Type a pattern (a list of words or a regexp), and
  	it shows a list of functions, variables, and other items whose
  	documentation matches that pattern.  See also the apropos command.
+ D  view-emacs-debugging.  Display information about Emacs debugging.
  e  view-echo-area-messages.  Go to the buffer that logs echo-area messages.
  f  describe-function.  Type a function name and you see its documentation.
  F  Info-goto-emacs-command-node.  Type a command name;
***************
*** 226,236 ****
          in the echo area.
  
  C-c Display Emacs copying permission (GNU General Public License).
! C-d Display Emacs ordering information.
  C-e Display info about Emacs problems.
  C-f Display the Emacs FAQ.
  C-m Display how to order printed Emacs manuals.
  C-n Display news of recent Emacs changes.
  C-p Display information about the GNU project.
  C-t Display the Emacs TODO list.
  C-w Display information on absence of warranty for GNU Emacs."
--- 230,242 ----
          in the echo area.
  
  C-c Display Emacs copying permission (GNU General Public License).
! C-d Display Emacs distribution and ordering information.
  C-e Display info about Emacs problems.
  C-f Display the Emacs FAQ.
+ C-j Display jokes about Emacs, GNU, and hacking.
  C-m Display how to order printed Emacs manuals.
  C-n Display news of recent Emacs changes.
+ C-o Display other sources of information about Emacs.
  C-p Display information about the GNU project.
  C-t Display the Emacs TODO list.
  C-w Display information on absence of warranty for GNU Emacs."
***************
*** 279,300 ****
  \f
  ;;; `User' help functions
  
  (defun describe-distribution ()
    "Display info on how to obtain the latest version of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "DISTRIB" data-directory)))
  
  (defun describe-copying ()
    "Display info on how you may redistribute copies of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "COPYING" data-directory))
!   (goto-char (point-min)))
  
  (defun describe-project ()
    "Display info on the GNU project."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "THE-GNU-PROJECT" data-directory))
!   (goto-char (point-min)))
  
  (defun describe-no-warranty ()
    "Display info on all the kinds of warranty Emacs does NOT have."
--- 285,309 ----
  \f
  ;;; `User' help functions
  
+ (defun view-help-file (file &optional dir)
+   (view-file (expand-file-name file (or dir data-directory)))
+   (goto-address)
+   (goto-char (point-min)))
+ 
  (defun describe-distribution ()
    "Display info on how to obtain the latest version of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "DISTRIB"))
  
  (defun describe-copying ()
    "Display info on how you may redistribute copies of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "COPYING"))
  
  (defun describe-project ()
    "Display info on the GNU project."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "THE-GNU-PROJECT"))
  
  (defun describe-no-warranty ()
    "Display info on all the kinds of warranty Emacs does NOT have."
***************
*** 397,403 ****
  (defun view-todo (&optional arg)
    "Display the Emacs TODO list."
    (interactive "P")
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "TODO" data-directory)))
  
  (defun view-echo-area-messages ()
    "View the log of recent echo-area messages: the `*Messages*' buffer.
--- 406,412 ----
  (defun view-todo (&optional arg)
    "Display the Emacs TODO list."
    (interactive "P")
!   (view-help-file "TODO"))
  
  (defun view-echo-area-messages ()
    "View the log of recent echo-area messages: the `*Messages*' buffer.
***************
*** 409,416 ****
  (defun view-order-manuals ()
    "Display the Emacs ORDERS file."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "ORDERS" data-directory))
!   (goto-address))
  
  (defun view-emacs-FAQ ()
    "Display the Emacs Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) file."
--- 418,424 ----
  (defun view-order-manuals ()
    "Display the Emacs ORDERS file."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "ORDERS"))
  
  (defun view-emacs-FAQ ()
    "Display the Emacs Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) file."
***************
*** 421,427 ****
  (defun view-emacs-problems ()
    "Display info on known problems with Emacs and possible workarounds."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "PROBLEMS" data-directory)))
  
  (defun view-lossage ()
    "Display last 100 input keystrokes.
--- 429,465 ----
  (defun view-emacs-problems ()
    "Display info on known problems with Emacs and possible workarounds."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "PROBLEMS"))
! 
! (defun view-emacs-debugging ()
!   "Display info on how to debug Emacs problems."
!   (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "DEBUG"))
! 
! (defun view-other-info-sources ()
!   "Display other sources of information about Emacs (MORE.STUFF)."
!   (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "MORE.STUFF"))
! 
! (defun view-emacs-jokes ()
!   "Display jokes about Emacs, the GNU project, and hacking."
!   (interactive)
!   (let ((buf (get-buffer-create "*JOKES*")))
!     (with-current-buffer buf
!       (let ((inhibit-read-only t))
! 	(erase-buffer)
! 	(insert "* Jokes about Emacs, GNU, and hacking\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "JOKES" data-directory))
! 	(goto-char (point-max))
! 	(insert "\n\n\n* Bug reports\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "future-bug" data-directory))
! 	(goto-char (point-max))
! 	(insert "\n\n\n* Emacs developer list humor\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "DEVEL.HUMOR" data-directory))
! 	(outline-mode)
! 	(view-mode)
! 	(goto-char (point-min))))
!     (display-buffer buf)))
  
  (defun view-lossage ()
    "Display last 100 input keystrokes.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Here is a small patch for help.el which provides the following additional
> help commands:
>
> C-h C-j  => Display jokes  (JOKES + future-bug + DEVEL.HUMOR)
>
> C-h C-o  => Display other info sources  (MORE.STUFF)
>
> C-h D    => Debugging GNU Emacs  (DEBUG)

Actually, it might be better to move the current

C-h C-d to C-h C-o  => Display ordering information...

We can then use these:

C-h C-d => debugging info
C-h C-x => eXternal sources of information ... (

[I don't care much about the jokes (C-h C-j),
so I can leave that out if people dislike it].


Here's an updated patch  (I'll fix the manual if approved):

*** help.el	28 Feb 2007 23:33:46 +0100	1.326
--- help.el	01 Mar 2007 14:38:14 +0100	
***************
*** 47,60 ****
      (define-key map "?" 'help-for-help)
  
      (define-key map "\C-c" 'describe-copying)
!     (define-key map "\C-d" 'describe-distribution)
      (define-key map "\C-e" 'view-emacs-problems)
      (define-key map "\C-f" 'view-emacs-FAQ)
      (define-key map "\C-m" 'view-order-manuals)
      (define-key map "\C-n" 'view-emacs-news)
      (define-key map "\C-p" 'describe-project)
      (define-key map "\C-t" 'view-todo)
      (define-key map "\C-w" 'describe-no-warranty)
  
      ;; This does not fit the pattern, but it is natural given the C-\ command.
      (define-key map "\C-\\" 'describe-input-method)
--- 47,63 ----
      (define-key map "?" 'help-for-help)
  
      (define-key map "\C-c" 'describe-copying)
!     (define-key map "\C-d" 'view-emacs-debugging)
      (define-key map "\C-e" 'view-emacs-problems)
      (define-key map "\C-f" 'view-emacs-FAQ)
+     (define-key map "\C-j" 'view-emacs-jokes)
      (define-key map "\C-m" 'view-order-manuals)
      (define-key map "\C-n" 'view-emacs-news)
+     (define-key map "\C-o" 'describe-distribution)
      (define-key map "\C-p" 'describe-project)
      (define-key map "\C-t" 'view-todo)
      (define-key map "\C-w" 'describe-no-warranty)
+     (define-key map "\C-x" 'view-external-sources)
  
      ;; This does not fit the pattern, but it is natural given the C-\ command.
      (define-key map "\C-\\" 'describe-input-method)
***************
*** 178,184 ****
  (defalias 'help-for-help 'help-for-help-internal)
  ;; It can't find this, but nobody will look.
  (make-help-screen help-for-help-internal
!   "a b c C e f F i I k C-k l L m p r s t v w C-c C-d C-f C-n C-p C-t C-w . or ? :"
    "You have typed %THIS-KEY%, the help character.  Type a Help option:
  \(Use SPC or DEL to scroll through this text.  Type \\<help-map>\\[help-quit] to exit the Help command.)
  
--- 181,187 ----
  (defalias 'help-for-help 'help-for-help-internal)
  ;; It can't find this, but nobody will look.
  (make-help-screen help-for-help-internal
!   "Type a help option: [abcCdDefFiIkKlLmprstvw.] C-[cdefjmnoptw] or ?"
    "You have typed %THIS-KEY%, the help character.  Type a Help option:
  \(Use SPC or DEL to scroll through this text.  Type \\<help-map>\\[help-quit] to exit the Help command.)
  
***************
*** 226,239 ****
          in the echo area.
  
  C-c Display Emacs copying permission (GNU General Public License).
! C-d Display Emacs ordering information.
  C-e Display info about Emacs problems.
  C-f Display the Emacs FAQ.
  C-m Display how to order printed Emacs manuals.
  C-n Display news of recent Emacs changes.
  C-p Display information about the GNU project.
  C-t Display the Emacs TODO list.
! C-w Display information on absence of warranty for GNU Emacs."
    help-map)
  
  \f
--- 229,245 ----
          in the echo area.
  
  C-c Display Emacs copying permission (GNU General Public License).
! C-d Display instructions for debugging GNU Emacs.
  C-e Display info about Emacs problems.
  C-f Display the Emacs FAQ.
+ C-j Display jokes about Emacs, GNU, and hacking.
  C-m Display how to order printed Emacs manuals.
  C-n Display news of recent Emacs changes.
+ C-o Display Emacs ordering information.
  C-p Display information about the GNU project.
  C-t Display the Emacs TODO list.
! C-w Display information on absence of warranty for GNU Emacs.
! C-x Display external sources of extensions to and information about Emacs."
    help-map)
  
  \f
***************
*** 279,300 ****
  \f
  ;;; `User' help functions
  
  (defun describe-distribution ()
    "Display info on how to obtain the latest version of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "DISTRIB" data-directory)))
  
  (defun describe-copying ()
    "Display info on how you may redistribute copies of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "COPYING" data-directory))
!   (goto-char (point-min)))
  
  (defun describe-project ()
    "Display info on the GNU project."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "THE-GNU-PROJECT" data-directory))
!   (goto-char (point-min)))
  
  (defun describe-no-warranty ()
    "Display info on all the kinds of warranty Emacs does NOT have."
--- 285,309 ----
  \f
  ;;; `User' help functions
  
+ (defun view-help-file (file &optional dir)
+   (view-file (expand-file-name file (or dir data-directory)))
+   (goto-address)
+   (goto-char (point-min)))
+ 
  (defun describe-distribution ()
    "Display info on how to obtain the latest version of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "DISTRIB"))
  
  (defun describe-copying ()
    "Display info on how you may redistribute copies of GNU Emacs."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "COPYING"))
  
  (defun describe-project ()
    "Display info on the GNU project."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "THE-GNU-PROJECT"))
  
  (defun describe-no-warranty ()
    "Display info on all the kinds of warranty Emacs does NOT have."
***************
*** 397,403 ****
  (defun view-todo (&optional arg)
    "Display the Emacs TODO list."
    (interactive "P")
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "TODO" data-directory)))
  
  (defun view-echo-area-messages ()
    "View the log of recent echo-area messages: the `*Messages*' buffer.
--- 406,412 ----
  (defun view-todo (&optional arg)
    "Display the Emacs TODO list."
    (interactive "P")
!   (view-help-file "TODO"))
  
  (defun view-echo-area-messages ()
    "View the log of recent echo-area messages: the `*Messages*' buffer.
***************
*** 409,416 ****
  (defun view-order-manuals ()
    "Display the Emacs ORDERS file."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "ORDERS" data-directory))
!   (goto-address))
  
  (defun view-emacs-FAQ ()
    "Display the Emacs Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) file."
--- 418,424 ----
  (defun view-order-manuals ()
    "Display the Emacs ORDERS file."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "ORDERS"))
  
  (defun view-emacs-FAQ ()
    "Display the Emacs Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) file."
***************
*** 421,427 ****
  (defun view-emacs-problems ()
    "Display info on known problems with Emacs and possible workarounds."
    (interactive)
!   (view-file (expand-file-name "PROBLEMS" data-directory)))
  
  (defun view-lossage ()
    "Display last 100 input keystrokes.
--- 429,465 ----
  (defun view-emacs-problems ()
    "Display info on known problems with Emacs and possible workarounds."
    (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "PROBLEMS"))
! 
! (defun view-emacs-debugging ()
!   "Display info on how to debug Emacs problems."
!   (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "DEBUG"))
! 
! (defun view-external-sources ()
!   "Display external sources of information about Emacs."
!   (interactive)
!   (view-help-file "MORE.STUFF"))
! 
! (defun view-emacs-jokes ()
!   "Display jokes about Emacs, the GNU project, and hacking."
!   (interactive)
!   (let ((buf (get-buffer-create "*JOKES*")))
!     (with-current-buffer buf
!       (let ((inhibit-read-only t))
! 	(erase-buffer)
! 	(insert "* Emacs, the GNU project, and hacking\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "JOKES" data-directory))
! 	(goto-char (point-max))
! 	(insert "\n\n\n* Future Bug report\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "future-bug" data-directory))
! 	(goto-char (point-max))
! 	(insert "\n\n\n* Emacs developer list humor\n\n\n")
! 	(insert-file-contents (expand-file-name "DEVEL.HUMOR" data-directory))
! 	(outline-mode)
! 	(view-mode)
! 	(goto-char (point-min))))
!     (display-buffer buf)))
  
  (defun view-lossage ()
    "Display last 100 input keystrokes.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
>>
>>> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 3/1/07, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Come on ...  it's a joke - and it belongs in JOKES.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Glenn. It's funnier *because* it is not in JOKES.
>>>>
>>>>             Juanma
>>>
>>> Still, it's been there since 1999, and I just noticed it yesterday.
>>> How funny is that :-)
>>
>> It hasn't been there since 1999 until you noticed.
>
> Right!  It's only been there since 2199, which probably explains
> why I didn't notice it before.
>
> But the timestamp in the CVS log confused me.  I guess the version
> of CVS used to install the file has a --time-travel option too.

You may find that fit for joking, but it just happens that I am a
really hard case for reality, since my surroundings have a very high
level of entropy and thus don't compress well.  To add insult to
injury, I have a very good memory.  So I frequently know just what
pile to pick apart right from the start, just to find that what I was
looking for is _not_ there.  Then I start looking in much less likely
places (after all, Sherlock Holmes stated that after ruling out all
plausible cases, one needs to turn to the implausible ones).  Spending
some time there gives reality the slack it needs to catch up, and of
course the stuff had been where I looked first all the time, but not
before I started looking elsewhere.

I think that the reality bandwidth in my flat does not cut it, but
then I don't know where to apply for an upgrade of the flat rate.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> I think that the reality bandwidth in my flat does not cut it, but
> then I don't know where to apply for an upgrade of the flat rate.

BTW, how do we know that the problem reported has been fixed?

Whoever informed us about the bug may have forgotten all about it, and
we'll have to keep distributing that bug report for another 200 years,
just to discover that it has actually been fixed when we get there.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Jay Belanger]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
...
> BTW, how do we know that the problem reported has been fixed?
>
> Whoever informed us about the bug may have forgotten all about it, and
> we'll have to keep distributing that bug report for another 200 years,
> just to discover that it has actually been fixed when we get there.

But if it's fixed when we get there, the bug report won't be filed,
will it?

RE: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Drew Adams]

> > C-h C-j  => Display jokes  (JOKES + future-bug + DEVEL.HUMOR)
...
> [I don't care much about the jokes (C-h C-j),
> so I can leave that out if people dislike it].

I dislike it. `C-h' should be reserved for Emacs help. Opening a buffer of
jokes or haikus or Zippy quotes or stock quotes or a calendar or ... is not
the same as providing help about Emacs.

Over time, we have needed more and more C-h bindings for real help, and that
is likely to continue. Let's reserve C-h for user help.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kim F. Storm]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> ... is not the same as providing help about Emacs.

Well, C-h C-j will tell you what "EMACS" means :-)
That's also a kind of useful information.

Also, the C-h prefix is used as short-cuts to view the files in etc/, so
it is not that far off...

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Jay Belanger]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>
>> ... is not the same as providing help about Emacs.
>
> Well, C-h C-j will tell you what "EMACS" means :-)
> That's also a kind of useful information.
>
> Also, the C-h prefix is used as short-cuts to view the files in etc/, so
> it is not that far off...

Does "help" just mean help with emacs, or help with life in general?
(I'll avoid the question of whether the two are different or not.)
I notice that, while the doctor doesn't have a "C-h" prefix, it does
appear under the "Help" menu.  Jokes can be thought of as a help in
coping with life.

RE: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Drew Adams]

> > ... is not the same as providing help about Emacs.
>
> the C-h prefix is used as short-cuts to view the files in etc/, so
> it is not that far off...

Presumably, that is because that info is thought to help users use Emacs.

In any case, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. I would draw it by
calling for a case-by-case judgement whether a candidate feature provides
user help or not. In this case, I'd say no.

If C-h gets diluted too much, it won't stand for "help" - that's what I'd
like to avoid. That there might already be some dilution of focus is not a
good argument for further dilution.

My second argument was to be conservative about binding stuff to C-h, in
order to reserve slots for the future.

Others might feel differently, of course.

RE: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Drew Adams]

> >> ... is not the same as providing help about Emacs.
> >
> > Well, C-h C-j will tell you what "EMACS" means :-)
> > That's also a kind of useful information.
> >
> > Also, the C-h prefix is used as short-cuts to view the files in etc/, so
> > it is not that far off...
>
> Does "help" just mean help with emacs, or help with life in general?
> (I'll avoid the question of whether the two are different or not.)
> I notice that, while the doctor doesn't have a "C-h" prefix, it does
> appear under the "Help" menu.  Jokes can be thought of as a help in
> coping with life.

IMO, C-h should be reserved for help with Emacs. I want users to look there
for help with Emacs, and I don't want them to get confused when they do so,
by seeing help with taxes, help with mother-in-law, and so on.

Just one opinion.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Richard Stallman]

    Over time, we have needed more and more C-h bindings for real help, and that
    is likely to continue. Let's reserve C-h for user help.

I agree.  Let's not install this change.

Re: Move etc/future-bug into etc/JOKES ??

[Kevin Rodgers]

Drew Adams wrote:
>>> C-h C-j  => Display jokes  (JOKES + future-bug + DEVEL.HUMOR)
> ...
>> [I don't care much about the jokes (C-h C-j),
>> so I can leave that out if people dislike it].
> 
> I dislike it. `C-h' should be reserved for Emacs help. Opening a buffer of
> jokes or haikus or Zippy quotes or stock quotes or a calendar or ... is not
> the same as providing help about Emacs.
> 
> Over time, we have needed more and more C-h bindings for real help, and that
> is likely to continue. Let's reserve C-h for user help.

We can put the commands to view the various etc/* files on the Super-e
or Hyper-e prefix key.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA