bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Oleh Krehel]

See commit e4a89ccf738861d7b9c4f611185aa0f204c9c208 from 2006 with:

+  (setq cursor-in-non-selected-windows nil)

And the following Changelog entry:

2006-04-12  Reiner Steib  <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>

	* gnus-art.el (gnus-article-mode):
	Set cursor-in-non-selected-windows to nil.

and no further explanation. If there are no objections, I'd like to
revert this change, since it's useful to see a hollow cursor in case the
buffer with the article isn't selected, and the hollow cursor is the
default in all modes except this one.

If a particular user wants the current setting, it can be set in
`gnus-article-mode-hook'. It's better than having a non-standard value
in one particular mode for all users.

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Oct 22 2015, Oleh Krehel wrote:

> See commit e4a89ccf738861d7b9c4f611185aa0f204c9c208 from 2006 with:
>
> +  (setq cursor-in-non-selected-windows nil)
>
> And the following Changelog entry:
>
> 2006-04-12  Reiner Steib  <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>
>
> 	* gnus-art.el (gnus-article-mode):
> 	Set cursor-in-non-selected-windows to nil.
>
> and no further explanation. If there are no objections, I'd like to
> revert this change, since it's useful to see a hollow cursor in case the
> buffer with the article isn't selected, and the hollow cursor is the
> default in all modes except this one.

Miles Bader suggested this change, I found it useful and Lars approved
it: See http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/62017 ...

| From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
| Subject: Re: cursor-in-non-selected-windows
| Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general
| Date: 2006-04-12 06:04:52 GMT
| 
| Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane <at> imap.cc> writes:
| 
| > (add-hook 'gnus-article-mode-hook
| > 	  (lambda ()
| > 	    (setq cursor-in-non-selected-windows nil)))
| 
| I think this should be the default.  Any objections?

Maybe this choice wasn't too bad since no one complained during the
last 9 years?

> If a particular user wants the current setting, it can be set in
> `gnus-article-mode-hook'. It's better than having a non-standard value
> in one particular mode for all users.

I had it in my init file before this change.

Bye, Reiner.

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Reiner Steib <reiner.steib@gmx.de>
> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 08:33:34 +0100
> Cc: 21734@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Thu, Oct 22 2015, Oleh Krehel wrote:
> 
> > See commit e4a89ccf738861d7b9c4f611185aa0f204c9c208 from 2006 with:
> >
> > +  (setq cursor-in-non-selected-windows nil)
> >
> > And the following Changelog entry:
> >
> > 2006-04-12  Reiner Steib  <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>
> >
> > 	* gnus-art.el (gnus-article-mode):
> > 	Set cursor-in-non-selected-windows to nil.
> >
> > and no further explanation. If there are no objections, I'd like to
> > revert this change, since it's useful to see a hollow cursor in case the
> > buffer with the article isn't selected, and the hollow cursor is the
> > default in all modes except this one.
> 
> Miles Bader suggested this change, I found it useful and Lars approved
> it: See http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/62017 ...
> 
> | From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> | Subject: Re: cursor-in-non-selected-windows
> | Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general
> | Date: 2006-04-12 06:04:52 GMT
> | 
> | Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane <at> imap.cc> writes:
> | 
> | > (add-hook 'gnus-article-mode-hook
> | > 	  (lambda ()
> | > 	    (setq cursor-in-non-selected-windows nil)))
> | 
> | I think this should be the default.  Any objections?
> 
> Maybe this choice wasn't too bad since no one complained during the
> last 9 years?
> 
> > If a particular user wants the current setting, it can be set in
> > `gnus-article-mode-hook'. It's better than having a non-standard value
> > in one particular mode for all users.
> 
> I had it in my init file before this change.

FWIW, I consider it a bad idea for a package to usurp a user option
like that, unless it has a VERY good reason to do that.  (The thread
you point to is unreadable for some reason -- I see the headers, but
not the body of the messages -- so I couldn't assess how good the
reason was.)

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> FWIW, I consider it a bad idea for a package to usurp a user option
> like that, unless it has a VERY good reason to do that.  (The thread
> you point to is unreadable for some reason -- I see the headers, but
> not the body of the messages -- so I couldn't assess how good the
> reason was.)

If I remember correctly, I think the reasoning was that in Gnus, you
normally have the cursor in the summary buffer, but you're reading from
the article buffer.  Displaying the (unused) cursor in the buffer you're
reading from is something that many think is annoying.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>,  ohwoeowho@gmail.com,  21734@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 17:36:45 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > FWIW, I consider it a bad idea for a package to usurp a user option
> > like that, unless it has a VERY good reason to do that.  (The thread
> > you point to is unreadable for some reason -- I see the headers, but
> > not the body of the messages -- so I couldn't assess how good the
> > reason was.)
> 
> If I remember correctly, I think the reasoning was that in Gnus, you
> normally have the cursor in the summary buffer, but you're reading from
> the article buffer.  Displaying the (unused) cursor in the buffer you're
> reading from is something that many think is annoying.

If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
> decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.

But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Reiner.Steib@gmx.de,  ohwoeowho@gmail.com,  21734@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:26:47 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
> > decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.
> 
> But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.

Who or what is UX?

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
>> Cc: Reiner.Steib@gmx.de,  ohwoeowho@gmail.com,  21734@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:26:47 +0100
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
>> > decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.
>> 
>> But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.
>
> Who or what is UX?

"User experience design".

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Oleh Krehel]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
>> decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.
>
> But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.

I didn't find it reasonable. I have tried hundreds of major modes and
was genuinely surprised to find the single one that has this setting.
At first, I thought it was a bug, since I never touched
`cursor-in-non-selected-windows` in my config, then I traced it to the
mode's definition.

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Oleh Krehel <ohwoeowho@gmail.com> writes:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
>>> decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.
>>
>> But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.
>
> I didn't find it reasonable. I have tried hundreds of major modes and
> was genuinely surprised to find the single one that has this setting.
> At first, I thought it was a bug, since I never touched
> `cursor-in-non-selected-windows` in my config, then I traced it to the
> mode's definition.

Well, it's been that way for a decade, and you're the first person to
find it surprising (that I can recall).  So I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: 21734@debbugs.gnu.org,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  Reiner.Steib@gmx.de
> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:50:13 +1100
> 
> Oleh Krehel <ohwoeowho@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> >
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >>
> >>> If that's the reason, IMO it definitely should be up to the user to
> >>> decide whether the inactive cursor annoys her or not.
> >>
> >> But the default should be the reasonable one from a UX standpoint.
> >
> > I didn't find it reasonable. I have tried hundreds of major modes and
> > was genuinely surprised to find the single one that has this setting.
> > At first, I thought it was a bug, since I never touched
> > `cursor-in-non-selected-windows` in my config, then I traced it to the
> > mode's definition.
> 
> Well, it's been that way for a decade, and you're the first person to
> find it surprising (that I can recall).  So I'm closing this bug report.

FWIW, I think that'd be a mistake.  It isn't hard to add a user option
(set it to whatever you want by default), so that those rare users who
want could customize this behavior.

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> FWIW, I think that'd be a mistake. It isn't hard to add a user option (set
> it to whatever you want by default), so that those rare users who want could
> customize this behavior.

I agree.  Customizability is the Way of Emacs.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

bug#21734: 25.0.50; cursor-in-non-selected-windows set to nil in gnus-article-mode for no apparent reason

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> FWIW, I think that'd be a mistake. It isn't hard to add a user option (set
>> it to whatever you want by default), so that those rare users who want could
>> customize this behavior.
>
> I agree.  Customizability is the Way of Emacs.

Yeah, but it's not the way of Emacs to provide separate variables to
tweak every little thing -- that's why we have mode hooks, so that
people can do whatever they want if what they want is obscure.  And this
is pretty obscure -- it's the first person who's mentioned it in the ten
years Gnus has been doing this.

Nevertheless, I've added a variable to tweak this.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no