From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Barry Fishman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:39:47 -0400 Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> <878w4mrtdd.fsf@roquesor.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281030060 14251 80.91.229.12 (5 Aug 2010 17:41:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:41:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 05 19:40:57 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh4R0-0002KS-Lq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:40:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56459 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oh4Qn-0005Ve-7w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:40:37 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=37717 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oh4Qa-0005PQ-Ve for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:40:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh4QJ-00055w-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:40:08 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:56170) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh4QI-00055h-Qe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:40:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh4QG-0001xA-25 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:40:04 +0200 Original-Received: from fl-71-48-254-109.dhcp.embarqhsd.net ([71.48.254.109]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:40:04 +0200 Original-Received: from barry_fishman by fl-71-48-254-109.dhcp.embarqhsd.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:40:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 79 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: fl-71-48-254-109.dhcp.embarqhsd.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:JC4JiZTg2+ocyhs/5B6k8s6bzXg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128312 Archived-At: Walter Alejandro Iglesias writes: > What windows, mac os and some "graphical desktop gnu/linux" users don't > know is that Emacs is coherent with the wonderful gnu base system (core > utils and family), a good, moderate, evolution of unix tools. And I am > seriously suspecting, reading this mailing list, some advanced emacs > users-developers suffer the same ignorance. That's why, I think, Emacs > leaning curve is developing in a black hole (using gnus to read mail is > an example). Since I started using Emacs I have seen many window systems come and go. What people call "Modern" window interfaces are just that, the currently popular window system behavior soon to be replaced by something else. I learned Emacs in spite of any initial difficulties because it provided me with a better and more flexible and productive environment in which to work. It was not overly difficult to learn, even in an environment where none of my colleagues were using it, but it did take some effort. Why is learning something different a bad thing? One of the benefits of Emacs was that on the occasions I needed to move from my usual Unix-like systems to Windows, I was able to install and run Emacs and get my mail, editing, and printing setups working. This gave me a beachhead on the platform and time to learn to work with the new computer environment. I found that even the best Window's tools of the time had gaps that were filled by continuing to use Emacs. If it is only a short term task under the new OS, much of that (mis-)learning can be avoided. Emacs, by using control sequences to do common things, becomes ingrained in your thought processes and automatic. If you ask me how to do a particular operation, I will probably not be able to tell you what the key sequence is. It is just something my fingers do when I think about doing the operation. Changing long term Emacs bindings to match the current (transient) window system flavor of the day fills me with some dread. One could make Emacs easier to pick up by people who have already spent time learning the (often badly designed) window environment on which it is being run. However, these people are less likely to explore the aspects of Emacs that make it a productive environment, developed over decades of effort. The easy adaption to Emacs's dummy editor functionality does not expose them to the initial learning process which also opens up the greater functionality of Emacs. The cost is that people who spend the time to learn Emacs now must work around platform specific changes and gratuitous changes between different Emacs versions. This is particularly difficult since many of these operations are performed automatically by your fingers and not thought about in a way you can apply remembered rules about what was popular on each particular Emacs version or on each particular window system. My .emacs file contains a section called "Forward into the past", which I use to undo changes made to placate new users at the expense of people that already use Emacs. Unsurprisingly, this section is not continually growing. The bindings generally bounce around while developers sort out all that was lost by the change, and then usually settle in on a consistent setup, at which point I can often take out my patches and relearn the final, now stable bindings (while working with non-sensitive files). The question ultimately is whether the purpose of developing free software is to spend ones time copying the evolving and gratuitous behavior of proprietary software, or looking long term into that would make computers a more productive and user /empowering/ environment in which to work. We know this is not the goal of Microsoft, Apple, or whoever succeeds them. Their goal as corporations has to be to make money for themselves. They do that or they get bought out by someone with that goal. Unfortunately, there is more money in getting people to pay you to think for them, than in teaching people how to solve problems themselves. People are not naturally stupid. They only become stupid when the opportunities to learn are closed or hidden from them. Shouldn't the free software efforts be focused on making computers a more worthwhile and enriching environment than in making proprietary environments cheaper? -- Barry Fishman