Developers, developers, developers

Developers, developers, developers

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
developers, right?  So I'm trying to be sneaky and make them fix stuff
in the Emacs bug tracker:

http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2014/11/13/welcome-new-emacs-developers/

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[David Kastrup]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
> developers, right?

That sounds about as likely as a car manufacturer being able to acquire
lots and lots of new mechanics by switching to a more common screwhead.

> So I'm trying to be sneaky and make them fix stuff in the Emacs bug
> tracker:
>
> http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2014/11/13/welcome-new-emacs-developers/

-- 
David Kastrup

RE: Developers, developers, developers

[Phillip Lord]

Or as likely as computer company would make 100 billion dollars by having 
computers with cool pulsing on-off lights, or phones with curved corners.

Phil

________________________________________
From: emacs-devel-bounces+phillip.lord=newcastle.ac.uk@gnu.org [emacs-devel-bounces+phillip.lord=newcastle.ac.uk@gnu.org] on behalf of David Kastrup [dak@gnu.org]
Sent: 13 November 2014 13:44
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Developers, developers, developers

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
> developers, right?

That sounds about as likely as a car manufacturer being able to acquire
lots and lots of new mechanics by switching to a more common screwhead.

> So I'm trying to be sneaky and make them fix stuff in the Emacs bug
> tracker:
>
> http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2014/11/13/welcome-new-emacs-developers/

--
David Kastrup

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Allen S. Rout]

On 11/13/2014 08:44 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
>> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
>> developers, right?
> 
> That sounds about as likely as a car manufacturer being able to acquire
> lots and lots of new mechanics by switching to a more common screwhead.


In the large, I think you're right.  But for my own part, the change of
VC is a significant obstacle removed.

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE

suggests that copyright assignment by US residents can be done
all-electronically, and refers supplicants back to this group.  I would
like to be helped to get started. :)



- Allen S. Rout

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

"Allen S. Rout" <asr@ufl.edu> writes:

> In the large, I think you're right.  But for my own part, the change of
> VC is a significant obstacle removed.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE
>
> suggests that copyright assignment by US residents can be done
> all-electronically, and refers supplicants back to this group.  I would
> like to be helped to get started. :)

I think the procedure is just to send an email to
copyright-clerk@fsf.org saying that you wish to assign the copyright for
your Emacs code to the FSF, and they'll take it from there.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Stefan Monnier]

> suggests that copyright assignment by US residents can be done
> all-electronically, and refers supplicants back to this group.  I would
> like to be helped to get started. :)

The process is as follows: fill the form below and email it to the FSF
as instructed.  They'll then send you the relevant paperwork to sign, in
the most efficient way available for your case.


        Stefan


Please email the following information to assign@gnu.org, and we
will send you the assignment form for your past and future changes.

Please use your full legal name (in ASCII characters) as the subject
line of the message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
REQUEST: SEND FORM FOR PAST AND FUTURE CHANGES

[What is the name of the program or package you're contributing to?]
Emacs

[Did you copy any files or text written by someone else in these changes?
Even if that material is free software, we need to know about it.]


[Do you have an employer who might have a basis to claim to own
your changes?  Do you attend a school which might make such a claim?]


[For the copyright registration, what country are you a citizen of?]


[What year were you born?]


[Please write your email address here.]


[Please write your postal address here.]





[Which files have you changed so far, and which new files have you written
so far?]

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Thomas Fitzsimmons]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
> developers, right?

Hopefully!  I've moved my wishlist patchset over:

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=16322#8

Thomas

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Eric Brown]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
> developers, right?  So I'm trying to be sneaky and make them fix stuff
> in the Emacs bug tracker:
>
> http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2014/11/13/welcome-new-emacs-developers/

One thing I'm confused about, does emacs still require:

./autogen.sh

and

make bootstrap

?

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Andreas Schwab]

Eric Brown <brown@fastmail.com> writes:

> One thing I'm confused about, does emacs still require:
>
> ./autogen.sh
>
> and
>
> make bootstrap

The build process hasn't changed in any way.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eric Brown <brown@fastmail.com> writes:

>> http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2014/11/13/welcome-new-emacs-developers/
>
> One thing I'm confused about, does emacs still require:
>
> ./autogen.sh
>
> and
>
> make bootstrap

If you have GNU make, you don't need to do that.  There's a GNUmakefile
installed in the checkout that will do all the necessary incantations.
So just "make" will suffice for most people.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Tom]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> 
> Since Emacs is now on git, we'll get tons and tons of new Emacs
> developers, right? 

Git is a good step in this direction (a widely used VC), but 
something else would also be useful.

Is there an uptodate list of small tasks which someone can
starts working on? I don't mean bug reports and stuff, but
specific small tasks which are clearly defined, have to be
done and they are good for getting a taste of contributing
to emacs. Something which takes, say, a half on hour, or
1-2 hours to done.

E.g. adding documentation for something, adding new automatic
tests, doing some small code fix, etc.

There are many small tasks like this which occur during
development and it would be useful to have an uptodate list
of these. Maybe with a time estimation ("takes about 1 hour")

Keeping such a list increases the administration a bit, but
it would also be beneficial for offloading these tasks to
casual contributors.

E.g. someone says: "I have an hour of free time, I'll fix
something in emacs." and he goes to this list, picks a
task, does it, sends the patch and it can be crossed out.

So the regular developers would regularly add these small
tasks to the list which could be done by the casual 
contributors, so it would free up core developers to work
on other, more demanding tasks.

It seems to me the little more administration which 
consists of adding these tasks to this list would
be worth it.

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 20:11:36 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> Is there an uptodate list of small tasks which someone can
> starts working on?

etc/TODO

> I don't mean bug reports and stuff

Why not?  Some bug report are small, clearly defined tasks.

> E.g. adding documentation for something, adding new automatic
> tests, doing some small code fix, etc.

For documentation, look in etc/NEWS: every entry there that has
neither a "+++" nor a "---" line before it needs to be documented.

Other than that, the traffic on this list should give you several
ideas every day.  You just need to listen and take note.

> It seems to me the little more administration which 
> consists of adding these tasks to this list would
> be worth it.

It is already being done.

Re: Developers, developers, developers

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Tom writes:

 > Is there an uptodate list of small tasks which someone can
 > starts working on?

Uh-oh.  Wishful thinking alert, here!

This takes an amount of maintenance effort comparable to simply fixing
bugs yourself for many such tasks.  It also seems to require a culture
of mentorship to go with it, which Emacs doesn't yet have (at least
it's not visible on emacs-devel).  For the mentorship aspect, read on.

 > Keeping such a list increases the administration a bit, but
 > it would also be beneficial for offloading these tasks to
 > casual contributors.

I know of two projects (Python and Bazaar) that have effectively done
this kind of thing, and "a bit" is a huge underestimate of the time
that experienced developers need to provide.  Emacs might be somewhat
less, because Python has a fair amount of formal process and Bazaar's
process was extreme and a lot of the mentoring effort was helping the
newcomer get with the program.  Still, the pure developer mentoring
aspect is quite expensive.

I think both projects got ample return for the effort, but it was also
quite clear that there are two types of experienced developers: those
who enjoy personal benefits from being mentors, and those who don't.

 > E.g. someone says: "I have an hour of free time, I'll fix
 > something in emacs."

People just don't do that very often.  Itches and scratching, ya
know.  That kind of behavior is *much* more popular among core
developers than casual contributors.

 > and he goes to this list, picks a task, does it, sends the patch
 > and it can be crossed out.

But "pick" is a problem, and it makes time estimation difficult.  I've
often asked for people to deal with NEWS, and get no takers.  (It is
possible to require committers to write NEWS, as Emacs does.)  Tasks
like that are easy to estimate: just estimate how much time it would
take you to do it.  People mostly want to work on bugs or features and
develop their design and coding skills.  A few will work on tests
(more code!).  All of these may require far more time (and help) for
the newcomer than for an experienced developer.  And any code requires
review, especially from new contributors.  (Note that all review has a
mentoring component, of course, but review != mentoring by a long
shot.)  Usually some core contributor effort (in the form of applying
a patch to a workspace, committing, and pushing to the trunk) will be
required as well, until the "casual" contributor becomes a regular.

 > So the regular developers would regularly add these small
 > tasks to the list which could be done by the casual 
 > contributors, so it would free up core developers to work
 > on other, more demanding tasks.

In Python and Bazaar, it did *not* free up core developers.  What
actually happened with Bazaar was a few regular contributors were
recruited (but they bailed out too when Canonical started withdrawing
manpower).  With Python (and more recent experience) what is happening
is that GSoC wannabes are flocking to the mentorship program.  That
biases things in favor of code too (Google doesn't permit
documentation or even pure testing tasks in GSoC).

Net, it has balanced out for both.  The main benefit was a few new
regular contributors who might not have become regulars without
mentoring, as well as a general "newcomers welcome" atmosphere that I
believe attracted new developers with little-to-no need for mentoring.

 > It seems to me the little more administration which 
 > consists of adding these tasks to this list would
 > be worth it.

I think we've found your "little task"! ;-)  Seriously, it's worth
doing, but curating such a list is a specific task, it's not a good
one for distributed effort "a little by each core contributor."