From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Hyatt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for removing obsolete packages Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:44:34 -0500 Message-ID: References: <83twmkkv16.fsf@gnu.org> <0b303f17-ace7-45f8-b5d3-828ff0ed0ab9@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1453671900 4521 80.91.229.3 (24 Jan 2016 21:45:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 21:45:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: johnw@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 24 22:44:52 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aNSSl-0005Yu-JY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:44:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33481 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aNSSk-00061z-Hi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:44:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aNSSh-00061q-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:44:44 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aNSSc-0000QP-5b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:44:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]:35223) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aNSSb-0000QK-Vj; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:44:38 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id o6so48219904qkc.2; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:44:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=FGKlWLsKHCaQlC+AeTgt7OPAW+l/EIcibnhxO8VwX+Q=; b=pi8C7iEcLuo3MeFS0x2NTypIA3C2lB+g8dOy+G35AxzYFEPOh8dgm+ZBpMbsKq6nKL zYFd3DonPpQauHuuyNCTQpme3Rwr6AUTmVWTzH4gjxzO8Pij0uBuF/95lCtZ48XguFI1 dCmxzr6fGmKkkcRCRw0Txknm+y1Wd1vcChozV1QXBvhVWL4nx9bcJjccZf/KIGl7Bk8S MjDgU9BNdt7HE1MRtVxs//R/zSPDNeuCOllBRDGIw2lroNcgT/tRmI4exM8Bf/7vKevN J9WYPCkELjaGYNgSWStmTxFoUyqJQPbDpy36q0wBo5nfqjJt2iyQbMvFQd2X0cP6ocZH 4edw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=FGKlWLsKHCaQlC+AeTgt7OPAW+l/EIcibnhxO8VwX+Q=; b=c/SWOJPq1Q5UwT8SRv6jNj+KenMrZX2KNzJR3uuZUc1uw0vlrWQBClA45ruaE7oa3E qZW3evgp4EGfT4it+mOzVXoQSIlpj+HLAUZDPOGPBM6u0FE2Bz8WAKHUaGLaU1Q//oJp r0Y0Z6glAqkMIjw+oiibAJpUkVgeUNV62gNkMIMNDE4GqSzwYtavf5l2PxxGRqZLaSQT BhMpwwbHDefzkR0LXiyenqikkCupyDxz20roY3nMiXrc4KxxGHR8nFykioZey1fjUsXw axcI4aAX3u0LDtB2We9stoFQQXLf74uGzqT2KReFhyx9Ta1wESYl072Sjd0EYzmzoqhi sA9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQqwQ4FpfEx5oGxTshcGRLMc8U7/dRWaHDmGHVOTgfe4b59o4O6Hx8axBxRNTEWuQ== X-Received: by 10.55.79.5 with SMTP id d5mr17316446qkb.30.1453671876876; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:44:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Andrews-MacBook-Pro.local.ahyatt-laptop (cpe-74-73-128-199.nyc.res.rr.com. [74.73.128.199]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a104sm7519268qge.43.2016.01.24.13.44.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Jan 2016 13:44:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0b303f17-ace7-45f8-b5d3-828ff0ed0ab9@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:56:00 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:198729 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: >> > Really? Just how do you "use Customize" to get a listing such as >> > `list-options' provides? How do you use `M-x customize' to get >> > such a listing? >> > >> > I don't think you can get such a listing. Certainly not with just >> > `M-x customize'. And `customize-apropos .*' doesn't give you the >> > same thing (no complete doc strings, and not just options, etc.). > > Both of those messages are incorrect in what they tell users now. > >> > If I'm right that there is no real substitute provided by Customize >> > then I think that command `list-options' (renamed, if necessary) >> > should be kept. It could be moved to one of the `cus*.el' files, >> > if you really plan to toss `options.el'. >> >> I hadn't used options before, but I tried now. I guess I don't see >> the usefulness of the command. > > It gives you a readable, searchable buffer of all of the options, > together with their values and complete doc strings. To me, that > can be useful. And I don't see that Customize provides any > replacement for it - nothing at all similar, AFAICT. > >> What I thought you were described above >> seems useful indeed - a list of everything customized (for those who >> don't want to fiddle with elisp). > > A list of everything that you have customized but not saved is a > different topic. It is not what `list-options' is for. > > But FWIW, the command you describe already exists: > `customize-customized' (though it returns info also about faces). > > And command `customize-saved', if by "customized" you meant > customized and saved. > >> But list-options instead gives much, >> much more than that in a buffer 38k lines long. > > Yes. It is not about options that you have customized - that's > a different topic. And it's not just about listing all of the > options with one-line descriptions. It's about what `list-options' > does: lists all options together with their current values and > complete doc strings. > >> What is the use of this, and why is it more useful than, say, >> customize-browse? > > See above for the usefulness. > > There is no reason to compare it with `customize-browse' - that's > irrelevant, unless you are claiming that it provides the same > functionality and so is a replacement. > > Just because `customize-browse' can be useful is no reason that > `list-options' cannot also be useful. > > Similarly for `customize-apropos-options', which is more like > what `list-options' does (with a regexp of `.*'). > > And you cannot search across all (complete) doc strings with > `customize-apropos-options' - you need to open each entry > individually, to see its full doc string. > > (Isearch could perhaps be modified to automatically open > `customize-apropos*' entries that have search hits, instead of > ignoring text in closed entries. But that's not the case today.) > > Anyway, you need not find the command useful for it to be useful > to others. (There are people who do not find `customize-browse' > to be particularly useful...) > > Try `apropos-documentation', which is not about options, but > which is another buffer that shows you complete doc strings, > across which you can search etc. Useful, no? > > An improvement to `list-options' could be to have it list only > matches for some apropos input. But even now by listing all > options it can be useful. > > If the `customize-apropos*' commands were improved to show > what `list-options' shows (searchable full doc strings and > current values) then `customize-apropos-options' might provide > a replacement for `list-options'. But that's not yet the case. Everything you wrote above is pretty reasonable, and as far as I can tell, correct. Thanks for the explanation. But this last paragraph seems wrong - if I run, for example, (customize-apropos-options "beyond.*fill"), I see customize option for 2c-beyond-fill-column, complete with the value I've set and the docstring, all easily searchable. However, the functionality that appears missing to me is either to be able to additionally search by docstring, or showing all options (basically, (customize-apropos-options ".*") should work quickly and give something useful, neither of which is true for me today.