From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Robert Pluim Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 12:01:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87k11htj96.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87pnb7u70r.fsf@red-bean.com> <87y2pvrzho.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87y2pvqhuj.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="9081"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Christopher Lemmer Webber , ndame , Emacs developers To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 12:02:49 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZAhV-0002Fe-2q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 12:02:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41980 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZAhU-00042j-57 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:02:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34154) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZAgo-0003Ju-AM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::331]:40139) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZAgj-0004Oi-OV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id u16so31730188wmc.5 for ; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=oht3V1U8v2tW2yPljxYv22Bq4q1a9/xR/bHp9xuJlIs=; b=ryH9P9Rl0tuY42tQapy25jGZswPD7DkIGFXAydSQN97ZiYgixWxKhT4MJ7cUs54Iew SvyLOPzT2Tx/tv18ddZ+xA6pT9G25h8v7/2E1E3QCJUIcsQl2UnWxZ+6/HVKH0y8yWOE zpJpzuixUnsUJHvGz/SHHyStcFZ257EdjMf2jQ0sjyWZW35izkRN3C1LDeTp7yvNwfz0 bEaKn33KmWDHpSm3PVmWy9A7l1yVXvxXdjqaO4cJJzrWYkDzfzItO+xTqo4/l6ntZfa7 fkqetNAsRJIlVPm6C+148j7PUBkV4WphDMXJDaWJKsHKISb9Wzl72HzJno+d6T1+mhE0 3NdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=oht3V1U8v2tW2yPljxYv22Bq4q1a9/xR/bHp9xuJlIs=; b=RWUukELYWqoidrEZDxpgvChlBlcLgV9cQZgqJGvDA1KXq+JJSPa0RNUpFQwp9XxXal oIop3US1bmCr2tKS3QLr6YSoMo7lZsDtjmM0z1ivVrdUysVBm4I5zVkg2FrWLHE71m6c rM3/UZBp9bwmiW3TYuSV7o26Unf6E4smthcuuy1PcfGbiBZ/mHyAOXv50OqhR9gtJxE3 KmvVIU6rWuBXbS94G/fUrcYm0SBwp2yGDxKtV7ZypjoaeU3mpzqY8HVsiv123eDb1Y+9 b+jaGWMue5ardL/XOHPHfWb+BYd4XWd5dt7UEBVJXA8xQJ2mVfo9XSEZlHX8hMrD0YRw 7Lyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYuaQSPkb8v4JouhHFZjSFVXNBRec4FnFAhdFM5F0BY4bI734D9 G+tumwC5H/r7pIQuh5jjHCQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK+XO6woclVrxqMqvmomlivqa+t8EdHL5C7o1UUA6/dMpLpcVpOuQGOxqXfGdZV3La4fP/Igg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:99d3:: with SMTP id b202mr49478343wme.126.1589450519597; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from rpluim-mac ([2a01:e34:ecfc:a860:b9ae:8fcb:efd9:2af0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c80sm1802166wme.15.2020.05.14.03.01.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 14 May 2020 03:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes In-Reply-To: <87y2pvqhuj.fsf@red-bean.com> (Karl Fogel's message of "Wed, 13 May 2020 23:08:04 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::331; envelope-from=rpluim@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x331.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250218 Archived-At: >>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 23:08:04 -0500, Karl Fogel said: Karl> Here's a concrete example I've seen over and over: Karl> User does `C-x C-f' to find a file, but they hit Return at the wrong Karl> moment while typing the file path, causing a Dired buffer comes up Karl> visiting the file's directory. The user is, of course, totally Karl> baffled by this result. And yet it's obvious why this is a good Karl> default behavior for `find-file' -- for people who understand what's Karl> going on. Are you proposing "you appear to be visiting a directory, would you like to enable dired? [yes/no/once]"? That would be massively annoying, but only once per feature, so I could live with it. Or we could add an 'emacs-expert-user' variable (or should that be 'expert-emacs-user'? :-) ). Karl> If the proposed starter pack is going to mitigate effects like that Karl> for newcomers, it can only do so by making the keybound functionality Karl> space sparser -- which of course then lowers the reward-for-investment Karl> rate as the user gains expertise. How do you propose solving that? Karl> Do we make an explicit "I'm ready to leave newcomer mode now" command? Karl> But that requires the user to make a guess about the moment of their Karl> graduation from newcomer to non-newcomer -- and this moment is Karl> mythical, since the learning is a continuous process with no discrete Karl> boundary. disabled commands already offer this, no? Robert