From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Preview: portable dumper Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:39:57 -0800 Message-ID: References: <047a67ec-9e29-7e4e-0fb0-24c3e59b5886@dancol.org> <83zikjxt1j.fsf@gnu.org> <8360n6ruzu.fsf@gnu.org> <834m2nplmb.fsf@gnu.org> <83inr2oje6.fsf@gnu.org> <83bmwuogfb.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1480707659 3165 195.159.176.226 (2 Dec 2016 19:40:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 19:40:59 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 02 20:40:54 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cCthV-0008Go-PU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 20:40:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36222 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cCthW-0003vt-Mu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 14:40:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58182) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cCtgp-0003va-Pq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 14:40:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cCtgl-0002GS-Qi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 14:40:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]:33906) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cCtgi-0002DD-Kb; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 14:40:04 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c4so54139443pfb.1; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:40:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=d1PGtq3tE6SJBnOPicCS0dAnHmuk6/fjR4GW7kOaGdM=; b=WmqnL0+5FvW/1t8eCWMgGMbB+j1eGhP7NHKirpCbpcS547dJ0wei6nKJSXmazm3Zah OrnsazM/npCjp9xBqkXIvn4EkHmVbHUpTmw5XP2mefrCeCYAsnrURzYPnL9zmMeDoXEj nUnJ1IiqGh3SS0nsMqLmznuB2mfCIFG9B2wBzpg3c4+KgLl8soRqViVwHaph8uF/p9UQ +KwgG2J97+stC6Y1cpUxuV6YgiuzYvyESTqlhGka9ubWkyX+uUV/axYnoBd8oiSPsqmX mYSEbB27uLdV3mkrH8p5chFk3abaUdQHrKY+H1sTFsuAPd6kWsWLCQ8t0Z9CHknfsVPm 5QMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=d1PGtq3tE6SJBnOPicCS0dAnHmuk6/fjR4GW7kOaGdM=; b=eVi/KM53EACtWTSpLYNkEUp6kxDa/FWv2a5J2V3aULpETFS79I82aWLsVQRHzg8K9Q RgyKNwT8ATHU2zXaoCBp+tP6iZ14QRGCMajJgC8bBgaQaKRHpOeSesJqnDPv1aHk4otO 8BYeqLUqLB8GjhYfEiDTyiqccWl7t2VO9WSDgCjgtEOqA3zSaI+CjbbVTHv4tFF64NZc TBig+P5TBdfhAY5h8cBtA19foYmtyWx2cPYB4+FlG8s4Iueftx6gXyyrer0+LbvtiLh9 IxvsXngeUdMGhCpA7PbZCyiKHCk41odTQVefMpvnaqRmIarsQlAfvmEzummLHW7Cf68P 2ccA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC02U9Pudizo6WcDoSJqM20neuSP2AkyNyCWxYNLRKWRszVj/hqCX2U+Lo77SQR3aMg== X-Received: by 10.98.4.134 with SMTP id 128mr46624109pfe.156.1480707602706; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:40:02 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.69.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c15sm9617380pfd.36.2016.12.02.11.40.01 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0F225486D612; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83bmwuogfb.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 02 Dec 2016 10:59:04 +0200") Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:209941 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > But with all due respect, you cannot have it both ways: beg me to stay in > charge, and then push me to give up one of the few firm ideas I have about > where Emacs should go and how. I think a part of this job is always political: Balancing the twin goals of promoting the best ideas, while also keeping everyone involved encouraged a= nd motivated. When we say "yes" to an idea, we might be hurting Emacs; but when we say "no", we might be hurting that contributor, and losing their future involvement. Sometimes that's fine -- after all, everyone else in the world wants us to care about Emacs more than a limited-time set of contributors -- but we also cannot thrive without active contributors, so "watering the garden" is part of our task. We all know the portable dumper is not an ideal solution; we even have some notion of what the ideal solution looks like. It's indeed a bit frustrating= to knowingly support a technology path that may end up incurring a lot of work, if a much better solution might be just around the corner. However, I ask you to consider the merits of Daniel's proposal from several angles -- angles a regular developer may not care about at all: - If we accept the work, we show to others that *code wins*. That is, if a problem exists in Emacs, and someone comes to us with actual code, this = has tremendous weight. If this is our position, it encourages others to experiment, since they'll fear less that after so much work, we might ju= st say "no" because it's not as good a solution as we'd like. - If we accept the work, it encourages Daniel to play a larger role, to le= arn more about the C internals, and likely to contribute even more. - If we accept the work, and a better solution comes along later, we can revert the change without undue labor. That is, our end cost is not so terribly high that we're panting ourselves into a corner. - If we accept the work, despite our disagreement, *precisely because most= of the other core developers do agree*, we're saying that their opinion hol= ds a lot of weight with us, and this encourages frank and open discussion. = If decisions like this are made by just you or me, against all other objections, it diminishes the value of this mailing list in others' eyes. It then seems like we're just making the Emacs we want, and not the Emacs all of us want. I think there is a "greater good" here, and it is not unduly damaged by letting a short-term solution into the code until a longer-term solution appears. There is much goodwill to be gained, and really not so much harm. = On the other hand, rejecting it -- despite the general sense of agreement is h= as gained -- would cause a much greater social damage, which is far more difficult to undo than one day asking Daniel to revert his work. All that said, if you feel strongly that this proposal hurts Emacs itself, = and cannot abide it, I understand. I was hoping we could all win here, but I kn= ow that sometimes this isn't realistic. I just hope we can all recognize that this portable dumper idea is not so terribly important: not to fork over, n= or to resign from the amazing support you provide. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEE3lW3afxXihSlvlQwwUTY9PGf5jAFAlhBzg4ACgkQwUTY9PGf 5jDPTgwApDqZ4WaQNqrrev0lAPxTmhwz9ul5uLvRJxE5LnrWdpQksOnDQym8qISX RQQBoREGrEBHbTNSPT7N2rSBFr1s7MkKwU7KZ5WdiCxHcnOQDPToy/3TLzWW7jOU cZ/EYvK9TBB6TKb6YU2mV7+w4FSIHHd+62Pn1lf5rr7MI9+BlHoA6H9U71cpadGs hpFkoWRu2AONXzkpnzN6/mFX+82oUluFpsqOWQGN/HXBDev/pDWvDDNIl0iIOCru 5ibb7qpCYT7dQBVCP4GMIDYF6z5XUQaPhIBJv9IdGWpFWE7wIUOb8LzUYltttR5Q QlQj7n59r1nxxRof8FDDjoNL97w6JzCWIKnN04U/B87+5PUb3MLkJvTHD/YdNCM9 B11/TZTtKq4pD4mTfMp/pLhsWAYWYYCGeF4uZMlc71Du0vho+qVkQGD/HX+9jpZc s3B9ywzZSmB2+pUh9W0/s/z/AprjdnEVF5ijJ7lq7CORFtyQU6kQZaxeusJUEsCc BRzOLq9C =Bdg4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--