From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "John Wiegley" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Maintainers and contributors Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:27:45 -0700 Organization: New Artisans LLC Message-ID: References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <87a8ren5ys.fsf@T420.taylan> <56259BB1.3070908@cs.ucla.edu> <878u6ykmvt.fsf@T420.taylan> <87h9llvo98.fsf@members.fsf.org> <5626622A.3090707@yandex.ru> <87zizdijbp.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267302.7050606@yandex.ru> <87io61igyu.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267CDF.6010201@yandex.ru> <87wpuhh15s.fsf@T420.taylan> <562683B9.1060305@yandex.ru> <83y4exe71v.fsf@gnu.org> <87fv13xirw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5628D0D2.4050507@yandex.ru> <87bnbrxewt.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83d1w7szw2.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445538535 29181 80.91.229.3 (22 Oct 2015 18:28:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:28:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: taylanbayirli@gmail.com, David Kastrup , dgutov@yandex.ru, bruce.connor.am@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 22 20:28:48 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpKbP-0004lQ-Lv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:28:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33886 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpKbO-0000DV-Ng for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:28:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56925) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpKau-0008H3-5b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:28:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpKap-0005Lo-MC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:28:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]:34890) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpKae-0005GU-Sg; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:27:53 -0400 Original-Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so93250450pas.2; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:27:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:organization:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=ZNLn+QwOeTX8+kbXnY6mZ9jd+8TISvstrRB8/qRFclA=; b=YXvSZwcWADVpZQRSQ9pOOOiRla4/wJFVZavjQ0CnfD3Jl0AWWJCveY4WHJnCba9PzA rBgvN0Im7RMwWiixYvEpgdHZefrbho/o3QS2L4bQghf0dJJnI+SNRiRTSSfmDYeFkeWK sbbR9CI1XpE60SyKAqJ+X/O9UqqNzxQDJg2DdCpKg6Oay/eIwn6xTK4BI+ikuIPXtqjU M//AN59dDtXzosgX8mbCzn58qyZHTyUhPqvg4tM3IaLtKLQi3je3IFuBFsyk/jrjkCS1 poXup/R9KO1bwcZuWqQMQpr6XuEGjK0EbKHZbwY2NqSz1e5XkY1PiB0HyO7Ur7Qcr4LV XrzA== X-Received: by 10.68.173.130 with SMTP id bk2mr19233432pbc.169.1445538472409; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id sn9sm15010989pac.16.2015.10.22.11.27.50 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 82F3DF6EA083; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:27:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83d1w7szw2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:10:05 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org, bruce.connor.am@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1=2FKamm?= =?utf-8?Q?er?=) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192418 Archived-At: >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > I would consider it unfair to hand off such a "discussion" -- unfair to the > person to whom I'm handing it off. If someone wants that crown of thorns, > they should volunteer. I'm happy to have that crown of thorns, as you call it. It would make you more productive, Eli, by not draining away your energy in these sorts of disputes. On the other hand, I have a personal need to improve my ability to negotiate these types of scenarios (outside of Emacs), so it gives me a chance to hone my fledgling skills. I think Artur's suggestion of shifting the discussion after it bounces back twice on the same point has merit. Not in the shadowy-cabal-backroom sort of way that David is opposed to, but in the "We hear your concern and are going to escalate its importance" sense. If I were arguing a point with a single maintainer, and that maintainer said, "Clearly this issue is of importance to you, I'm going to bring another maintainer into this discussion", I would feel very listened to. As it stands, the falling out with Taylan was not entirely technical. I've spoken to Taylan on IRC, and he is actually a very reasonable fellow. Mainly, there was a difference between his desire, and his position, that we missed: Desire: Avoid security vulnerabilities in his code. Position: `shell-quote-argument' violates this desire, and should not be used. Since emacs-devel probably can't fix `shell-quote-argument' today, rewrite it until it is fixed. Had the discussion been about this desire, we could have talked about whether he should bother worrying about security in the context of Emacs, since we generally don't put much focus there. Eli did start to mention this, but I think it was lost in the storm, or seen as a dodge. Because the `shell-quote-argument' position was stated early in the bug thread, the discussion devolved into a "hard bargaining" scenario, where Taylan could not accept using `shell-quote-argument' as it stood, and we could not accept his re-implementing it. From that moment on there was really no agreement possible, not without sacrifice. This is when things started to get nasty, because the submitter thought we were completely ignoring his primary issue. Here's what our side looked like: Desire: Make Emacs as easy to maintain as possible. Position: Re-implementing `shell-quote-argument' is unnecessary; if it has problems, we should fix it, rather than increasing our code surface. Was there a solution to resolve both of these desires? I bet you there was. Was there one to unite the two positions? Doubtful; at least, not in a manner satisfying to both parties. I'm not asking the maintainers on emacs-devel to become negotiators who must worry about layers of meaning: only that Artur's suggestion of escalating disputatious issues -- so we can step back together and reassess the needs of the submitter -- could have made it possible to avoid all that was lost in the past week. John