From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On language-dependent defaults for character-folding Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:48:31 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87povqe5tr.fsf@gnus.org> <87ziuta4l4.fsf@gnus.org> <87y4adzcia.fsf@gnus.org> <83twl0k1k5.fsf@gnu.org> <83k2lvi99c.fsf@gnu.org> <83oab6gfiw.fsf@gnu.org> <878u29x8vl.fsf@fastmail.fm> <83ziuncpch.fsf@gnu.org> <83fuwecztu.fsf@gnu.org> <83bn72cxfa.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: John Wiegley NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456613351 3303 80.91.229.3 (27 Feb 2016 22:49:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 22:49:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, larsi@gnus.org, lokedhs@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 27 23:49:00 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aZnfY-0005rU-B0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 23:49:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56636 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZnfX-0008LK-UG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:48:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43767) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZnfI-0008Kt-6j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:48:45 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZnfG-0006kK-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:48:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]:33639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZnfC-0006ji-Md; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:48:38 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 124so8450822pfg.0; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:48:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=tWwon999Nkby9hFWG4GYRlkAUR6eThO7dMTPZxBcEpg=; b=ZCq9nlBeGMLNMgWWlGaVXhrNaCSRwYLc2cU0rlSM5eVQDgozRy+u9v66cnT8VDBWmi azhIFPy/3UMnZsFK5oOVuKvelzbE7Aa638CB0bm9UlGWBUdTobWvPwocUlC6XzI3L+0o 9Ld771blPKlDDMdos4xexe27MgIbKvyHUPbaTaKwY1JGu71jZL5Ac8afGRXf/ONnGJKd Btb8uc+oyd50qkn1a2we8XdvDCe/TV9TtBo0fkIR+5hWNaoUCksHaOwBmu/DbbMbb/vl apgOTkvd4MaveGtCpLoLVczELtFq7V6L8Y/sxjC8VMjXNe101CnPKdYDNwkJKanv1Ssq OMJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=tWwon999Nkby9hFWG4GYRlkAUR6eThO7dMTPZxBcEpg=; b=XEKTH08+vENp6AxPE1YcrKG3qyh6ajKHbgYg+NQL36JO0ccDEljf232TfbrvzWRppo cD4Y939n4cK0UDSQiEt0AUHebDRvt4jad70YJb1adfyzwxvgORbS6UzJXGAz/6TGG+p+ njdRKtbCvGiIQA01v1CeXTG7lpxG0mfHN9trvo2ttAP0DrRmWjiY39VCa5Lny8ozpwU1 VSp0/hA/mf56VQk866mxTSbqca+8bfa/WhxraTsS/TM4Pe3naL2xKMohnhHHsPlqjunF muyPE2e0SROd6XaISoSCCbdGX1nOCsmHY8/xDBSmHjXmviJFqHs0207pr2UU2uW+yS4p Ir9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLrloNyb8SY5DD1J2XsjQ17oooYC9qO2C0ApI05E3+GqvrnMifQoK8exNtdxs17xw== X-Received: by 10.98.1.197 with SMTP id 188mr12133865pfb.8.1456613317686; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:48:37 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm20704273pas.19.2016.02.27.14.48.35 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A5929131EF6EE; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:48:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83bn72cxfa.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 27 Feb 2016 11:30:49 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , joostkremers@fastmail.fm, rms@gnu.org, lokedhs@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200730 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > I've asked these questions a lot in this discussion, and still the majori= ty > thinks that the locale in which Emacs is started should be used for the > defaults. So you are in fact arguing with what the majority says, not with > me. From=20what I've seen, this is a complex feature with many corner cases, so= me of which may not have been encountered yet because it hasn't been "out in the field" except for a few pretests. > Do we have a clear definition of what are the criteria for this feature to > be "ready for prime-time as a default"? You are in effect saying that we > will never be able to find good answers for those questions. We shouldn't= be > dismissing a good feature such as this one, which many users like, due to > FUD-like arguments. Having such a clear definition would be the first criterion. :) Otherwise, I feel like we're saying, "It sounds useful, why not enable it by default?" Here are my somewhat fuzzy criteria: 1. Questions about the feature should not prompt mega-threads that fail to reach clarity within a three week time-frame. This indicates a lack of clarity about the feature among the core developers, and I believe users will notice this lack of clarity when trying out the feature. 2. If there is work yet to be done, we should know what the work is. Otherwise, the feature may change in unpredictable ways in future versions. If that's the case, why make it the default before those decisions have been made? 3. I would like to have a sense that this is a feature with either prior a= rt, or considerable experience, behind it. Instead, I get the *feeling* (fr= om reading this thread) that we're just starting to explore the idea of character-class-based searching, and it strikes me as odd that we would make our first attempt at it a default behavior for all users. I've heard several people ask for it not to be a default, and I take that seriously. The many complexities surrounding this feature make me uneasy. If this were a product for sale, I'd have a huge question mark next to making this a default behavior, given the confusion and false bug reports it is likely to raise. Nothing I've read so far in this discussion has increased = my sense of security; quite the opposite, I become more wary by the week. It seems like the more we poke this anthill, the more critters jump out. That said, I'm quite happy for the feature to be there, and I will most definitely turn it on. The question is whether it should become the default for all users from the start. We can always enable it as a default later, s= o I don't see a need to hurry. This could be a great feature to introduce as a default in 26.1, if it receives good reception from early adopters in 25.x. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW0ie/AAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwnuEL/RVmcx89p/+rNfYi074Grggr LAKx6KiRkCxf3S07tYkX30aYbeUIw4q3xohSOfTab1ApPHGGLlZ8Wy9bWo1ZCBXo WH0mr/iujhtCta0fnbvIquxkI8ovxFa03sj6XV2A/aWVu7iFGwsGIW9mvRC8snwu f0kU0sVO0RqwlwSetz2Q4GQayyYIEm34SRTdHLd/NWwrpdT9ZILlBHQPzvzMSbQu vUyaL9QkTY7J6VIg/JzJjmTnm4M54msM9fX0t+v09j1YclXnHVv3FhiU2whSktfo /Zp9PjrANel8UFOrSjTNGodO9WZLTdInrK61R/RYhWAy1nFRVhDK+Js0LWkYi1PB paM/ZLZaF6GOgOD27vekhLGNu3BYUfLy/WQMN539RVCaATbeTcAVLoiUvxEWno7K qRDjlnzmRFJql8HToTIUo6fyjv5xXXoVQFkdAXx2036/OFqHM5PHixX05RJKT4wP 1G66oif7/rUV3sgA0ctRr3GlcOJG6TrK4rK9fOQPIQ== =9cwl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--