From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On language-dependent defaults for character-folding Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:24 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87ziuta4l4.fsf@gnus.org> <87y4adzcia.fsf@gnus.org> <83twl0k1k5.fsf@gnu.org> <83k2lvi99c.fsf@gnu.org> <83oab6gfiw.fsf@gnu.org> <878u29x8vl.fsf@fastmail.fm> <83ziuncpch.fsf@gnu.org> <83fuwecztu.fsf@gnu.org> <83bn72cxfa.fsf@gnu.org> <83si0cakvf.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: John Wiegley NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456700414 16424 80.91.229.3 (28 Feb 2016 23:00:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 23:00:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, lokedhs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , larsi@gnus.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 28 23:59:58 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aaAJh-0007IL-G7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 23:59:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60944 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaAJd-00067f-Oh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:59:53 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51594) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaAJO-00067Q-Bl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:59:39 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaAJN-0008TQ-8w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:59:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]:33206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaAJI-0008Sy-TH; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:59:33 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id fl4so80863609pad.0; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=Gm8T0/ed7F/pm4UfXXFXlX8wLfFki6Pa5WPFWZED94I=; b=BTkgLvi0pUuQKVLg10Duikko0PLg47fFv9PENbGbjla5skEWIUMsMoIAwaQh75AA0T qIXitekdtyDtIgESNsgULd+agVcUI6E1cGrK22BU6mJOVmNmX3Y+nCAaTSCIoekJCbm3 iJkYee2cl2W4/6etQbvBCYpBir9wlMHlXbqeoFWucKhhd4qbqWqoouv449L5rpz0EGe6 hcb7pOWSpbr6gmE0EfCip3pBiZokiqTMe8krFdBvKDmyy2gnlxHdWfrTE+COxBc4OnOm OZinrdq8DpqPD9/VfsIkgC/9GlnFMMlZ6c2wliV4pfdiPDR0oPd1A7LjcpFbrHOl16IC TkMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=Gm8T0/ed7F/pm4UfXXFXlX8wLfFki6Pa5WPFWZED94I=; b=iRYK5/ciN7qvRxSq2x1az7rT0JNhcu+2zSxyFBqTvVSaXWAa186lSsiYsXCuRQK9sf Idy/N12kZ1GGP74ZB5Iihj/Huqz8RkdMvKXSsgt/aAHbQXW6AlzYI2sfD8frXFM9QPZI 9VTaJCGE5PupEPSjLSLhYvAPoThrsx/kUsY0orH8nUqi0RA/IF776kHcetNXs78FNeH1 i1hRzFuCChPWZOs5rC4LoOqrMXsS1QvN6GtLoJuXQD0Zay/36ik/iyJ7ea+nsXn0d2Q6 53XSKwxzV0bpemkf4+Q4jDz721bIeTPDT9iSJZpBC8r/e7F7RiBqlNl3NAHL0yUi7ZIf tSLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLCzkXznPJGFjfdvqN9woNytgtIzNAAzCwmSqOWUPpihMxl7EaSNeT6BYBV3f8bQw== X-Received: by 10.66.220.7 with SMTP id ps7mr18625794pac.58.1456700371393; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:31 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w69sm18184341pfi.55.2016.02.28.14.59.28 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0FA3B1320FB1C; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 28 Feb 2016 08:59:02 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , joostkremers@fastmail.fm, larsi@gnus.org, lokedhs@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200788 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Drew Adams writes: > What seems clear to me for Emacs 25.1 is that the feature should be inclu= ded > AND that it should be simple to both (1) customize the default behavior f= or > a given user (i.e., what behavior search starts with, a la > `case-fold-search') and (2) toggle the behavior on the fly, during Isearc= h. I think Drew has summarized perfectly what I would like to see happen. In addition, I'd add one more item: Once 25.1 is released, I (or another) will write a blog article publicizing this feature and touting its benefits, in order to encourage people to try it out and discover how useful it can be. However, making it a default in 25.1 is something I am simply not comfortab= le doing, giving the diversity of opinion on this list, plus my own misgivings about so new (and nuanced) a feature. Yes, the visual equality of =C3=A1 an= d =C3=A1 is a powerful argument, but as Drew said, there will be well-advertised ways to both enable this feature, and to toggle it while searching. Users will not lose any capacity by our decision, they will simply not experience it as a default out of the box. And so, my decision is that this feature will be off by default in the 25.1 release, with the genuine hope that it can be made solid enough to become a default in a future release. It needn't even wait until 26.1, if we receive enough positive feedback. My thanks to everyone for the extensive and conscientious debate, and to Eli for sticking to his guns. I am hopeful we will reach general consensus over time, and that this feature will come to be recognized as a compelling aspe= ct of the Emacs feature set. Until that day, please forgive me my reservations; I'm just not there yet in wanting this to become a default behavior. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW03vMAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwYHcMAJBepJoVHhCwoPzTnr1MdlRU v007VJVrcBII8t9hLhlsu59F3gaLIrVOx9G1KbtCcgKeCTVvaGHLglAV0403EXvv mw9otYh7AhwhtjMw8hYLWq+t/krCgcZ6hqJSbfOo1KlsmSTJp7dAk9/ExvYxtKAt R9EzAbT0SAk0bQ3ws2ebOZ8nr2a5xVYpjlFNgPbcv99iRoZ7xQMUyLhr+UTJ3oX6 9H0Injm4UW+EEulVNEF+DkmURv4GfnWoftQovuoVS1z8ZzaFdon2NVTlCfrsn/10 kH+p1/rX3rP7l5+N2xgH4MqE5XLfzW9ljxDvILF6wzgxrGiADZ/CRGDpExk8WA/i aoJ48gaG1IVA3TseSuxut/MLu2oC6u709inhjR2RyDtdPRqKVyMNB5ZrgD4ThCGz 7JS7QM2cMWy/7ObE4IBWvNp5FYOG0HYE7pk8IohrO44GribA4SXQdfVhrGbsPwyf zRratlwtN1i5SB0dallUlFtbJEl4xSddxWYsCEWpEw== =s8iB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--