OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Anders Lindgren]

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Hi!

Under OS X, the default key layout binds the following:

    CMD - Super
    ALT   - Meta

The "super" key map is in turn populated with commands to simulate typical
OS X key bindings like CMD-X, CMD-C, and CMD-V for cut, copy, and paste,
respectively.

The problem with this layout is that there is no "compose" key, so it's
impossible to write normal characters like "[", "]", "|", "\" etc.
Normally, they are typed using the ALT key.

I propose that we change it to:

    CMD - Meta
    ALT - Compose

This keyboard layout, incidentally, is the one used by the Carbon "mac"
port of Emacs (which is about to be integrated into the Emacs repository).

Unless anybody objects, I'll do this change in the next couple of days.

    -- Anders Lindgren

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Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com> writes:

> Unless anybody objects, I'll do this change in the next couple of days.

No objection from me, since that's how I have things mapped as well.  Are
there any other Mac users who have an opinion?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Adrian.B.Robert]

John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Unless anybody objects, I'll do this change in the next couple of days.
>
> No objection from me, since that's how I have things mapped as well.  Are
> there any other Mac users who have an opinion?

With a US keyboard layout, the Alt/Opt key is not used for typing alphanumeric
characters or common symbols.  At least speaking for myself, I use many other
apps besides Emacs on the Mac, and in those my fingers are all well-trained to
use the standard system command-key shortcuts.  And my fingers are also
well-trained to use Alt/Opt to access meta from long use of Emacs on Linux and
other platforms.  So it's hard to switch this just when using Emacs on the
Mac.  Thus, if this change is made, I would advocate for it to be a
customization toggle, perhaps even in the Options menu, that is easy to switch
back.

In any case, I think it's a pretty big default change, that at least deserves
more than a couple of days warning / discussion.

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:40:29 +0100
> From: Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com>
> 
> I propose that we change it to:
> 
> CMD - Meta
> ALT - Compose
> 
> This keyboard layout, incidentally, is the one used by the Carbon "mac" port of
> Emacs (which is about to be integrated into the Emacs repository).
> 
> Unless anybody objects, I'll do this change in the next couple of days.

Since this is an incompatible change, we should have an option to
revert to the previous behavior (make sure to mention that in NEWS,
btw).

Also, if you want to turn this on by default, I think that can only be
done on master; on the release branch the default should be the old
behavior.

Thanks.

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Adrian B Robert <Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com> writes:

> With a US keyboard layout, the Alt/Opt key is not used for typing
> alphanumeric characters or common symbols. At least speaking for myself, I
> use many other apps besides Emacs on the Mac, and in those my fingers are
> all well-trained to use the standard system command-key shortcuts. And my
> fingers are also well-trained to use Alt/Opt to access meta from long use of
> Emacs on Linux and other platforms. So it's hard to switch this just when
> using Emacs on the Mac. Thus, if this change is made, I would advocate for
> it to be a customization toggle, perhaps even in the Options menu, that is
> easy to switch back.

> In any case, I think it's a pretty big default change, that at least
> deserves more than a couple of days warning / discussion.

As this behavior has been "out in the wild" now, I'm thinking we should rather
preserve this default in both Mac build variants, with a note how to switch to
the pattern being recommend in this thread. The default would then be kept as
it is.

Since there are people in both camps (i.e., people who will configure Emacs to
the other pattern no matter what we do), it's hard to argue that one should
necessarily be the default over the other.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 1, 2016, at 01:02, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since there are people in both camps (i.e., people who will configure Emacs to
> the other pattern no matter what we do), it's hard to argue that one should
> necessarily be the default over the other.

For all the other Mac applications (except Xquartz) Alt is used to compose characters that are not by default in the keyboard layout. That's one of the very strong point of OSX machines by the way. On a standard JIS keyboard I can type French without having to change the layout, or English, or Japanese, out of the box.

The default for Emacs on Mac should be the OS default so that new users who are used to that behavior do not have to search for the Emacs way to use their keyboard the standard way...

Jean-Christophe Helary

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Bozhidar Batsov]

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Btw, can someone explain in greater details what exactly is the intended
outcome of this change. Frankly, it's not quite clear to me (
and as an Emacs and Mac user, such changes are of general interest to me.

On 1 January 2016 at 02:40, Jean-Christophe Helary <
jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > On Jan 1, 2016, at 01:02, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Since there are people in both camps (i.e., people who will configure
> Emacs to
> > the other pattern no matter what we do), it's hard to argue that one
> should
> > necessarily be the default over the other.
>
> For all the other Mac applications (except Xquartz) Alt is used to compose
> characters that are not by default in the keyboard layout. That's one of
> the very strong point of OSX machines by the way. On a standard JIS
> keyboard I can type French without having to change the layout, or English,
> or Japanese, out of the box.
>
> The default for Emacs on Mac should be the OS default so that new users
> who are used to that behavior do not have to search for the Emacs way to
> use their keyboard the standard way...
>
> Jean-Christophe Helary
>

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Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Adrian Robert]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary <at> gmail.com> writes:
...

> For all the other Mac applications (except Xquartz) Alt is used to
> compose characters that are not by
> default in the keyboard layout. That's one of the very strong point of
> OSX machines by the way. On a standard
> JIS keyboard I can type French without having to change the layout,
> or English, or Japanese, out of the box.
> 
> The default for Emacs on Mac should be the OS default so that new
> users who are used to that behavior do not have
> to search for the Emacs way to use their keyboard the standard way...


These are good points.  Of course, the problem is whichever key you choose
to be meta, you are giving up some OS defaults; it is just a question of
which ones are more important for how many users.  But it would also be
good to take a parallel approach to Emacs on other platforms.  Currently
under X or Windows, the Alt/Opt key goes to meta under Emacs, despite
having other uses in the OS.  But IIRC it is only done on one side, so the
Alt key on the other is still available for character selection use.  (And
maybe menu shortcut use in Windows?)

Would this be implementable in either the NS or Mac ports?  And if so would
it allow natural / acceptable use by European users?

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Random832]

Adrian Robert <Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com> writes:
> These are good points.  Of course, the problem is whichever key you choose
> to be meta, you are giving up some OS defaults; it is just a question of
> which ones are more important for how many users.  But it would also be
> good to take a parallel approach to Emacs on other platforms.  Currently
> under X or Windows, the Alt/Opt key goes to meta under Emacs, despite
> having other uses in the OS.

I think you've got to take a whole picture view of this.  With a
European keyboard layout selected in X, the right Alt key (or
whichever key, since this is customizable with xkb) won't send
"Alt", but instead will be "ISO_Level3_Shift" or "Mode_Switch".
So Emacs doesn't have to do any special handling to get the
desired behavior.  Meanwhile, on Windows, the right alt key on a
European keyboard layout sends a synthetic "Left Ctrl, Right
Alt" modifier combination that can be detected and can and
should be acted on specially.

> But IIRC it is only done on one side, so the
> Alt key on the other is still available for character selection use.  (And
> maybe menu shortcut use in Windows?)
>
> Would this be implementable in either the NS or Mac ports?  And if so would
> it allow natural / acceptable use by European users?

This is not what is done now, but it can certainly easily be
implemented. This is how I set up my own configuration, with
(setq ns-right-alternate-modifier 'none) - the current default
is 'left, which makes it defer to ns-alternate-modifier (which
is 'meta)

I am not European, but I think it would probably be natural for
European users because this is how MS Windows and I _think_ most
Linux distributions are set up by default, and the right alt key
alone is labeled AltGr on PC keyboards.

I was incidentally a bit confused by the original post calling
the desired functionality "compose" - this feature is not
compose, it's third level shift.

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 1, 2016, at 17:57, Adrian Robert <Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> For all the other Mac applications (except Xquartz) Alt is used to
>> compose characters that are not by　default in the keyboard layout. That's one of the very strong point of　OSX machines by the way. On a standard　JIS keyboard I can type French without having to change the layout,　or English, or Japanese, out of the box.
> 
> These are good points.  Of course, the problem is whichever key you choose
> to be meta, you are giving up some OS defaults; it is just a question of
> which ones are more important for how many users.

Esc works by default as Meta. No need to interfere with the Alt/Option key behavior.

> But it would also be
> good to take a parallel approach to Emacs on other platforms.  Currently
> under X or Windows, the Alt/Opt key goes to meta under Emacs, despite
> having other uses in the OS.  But IIRC it is only done on one side, so the
> Alt key on the other is still available for character selection use.  (And
> maybe menu shortcut use in Windows?)

That's where there are Left and Right keys. On laptops only the Left Alt/Option exists and is used for Compose.

> Would this be implementable in either the NS or Mac ports?  And if so would
> it allow natural / acceptable use by European users?

I guess for keyboards where Right Alt/Option exist that key could be set as default, otherwise, stick to Esc and leave the Compose key as it is.

Jean-Christophe Helary 

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Anders Lindgren]

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>
> Btw, can someone explain in greater details what exactly is the intended
> outcome of this change. Frankly, it's not quite clear to me (
> and as an Emacs and Mac user, such changes are of general interest to me.
>

The main problem with the default layout is that on European keyboards, you
can't type normal characters like "|" and "{" as they require the OS X
"compose" key.

I've read a number of bug reports, questions, and comments regarding this.
The motivation behind the proposed change is for Emacs to provide a decent
default behaviour so that it doesn't scare away first time users. (Power
user can easily reconfigure the keys using the `ns-xxx-modifier' variables.)

Of course, one can consider other layouts as well, including mapping the
left and right keys differently (e.g. right ALT is compose and left ALT is
meta). However 1) not all keyboards have all modifier keys and 2) many
users want the modifier keys on either side of the keyboard to perform the
same action. (Again, a power used can easily configure their keyboard to
work this way.)

    -- Anders Lindgren

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Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Random832]

Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com> writes:
> The main problem with the default layout is that on European
> keyboards, you can't type normal characters like "|" and "{" as they
> require the OS X "compose" key.

This functionality is not called "compose", and it's confusing to
refer to it as such. "compose" is an X11 feature where you can type
something like "compose, a, a" for å.

> I've read a number of bug reports, questions, and comments regarding
> this. The motivation behind the proposed change is for Emacs to
> provide a decent default behaviour so that it doesn't scare away first
> time users. (Power user can easily reconfigure the keys using the
> `ns-xxx-modifier' variables.)

The whole point of having command mapped to super is to allow for
key bindings that first time users expect. I think your proposal
would scare away more first time users than the current behavior.

> Of course, one can consider other layouts as well, including mapping
> the left and right keys differently (e.g. right ALT is compose and
> left ALT is meta). However 1) not all keyboards have all modifier keys
> and 2) many users want the modifier keys on either side of the
> keyboard to perform the same action. (Again, a power used can easily
> configure their keyboard to work this way.)

On Windows and Linux only the right-hand Alt key (called "AltGr")
performs this function in the first place, so I'm not convinced that
it would be as surprising as you think it is.

Are there any common keyboards (let's start with if there are any
sold by Apple - I think people who use third-party PC USB keyboards,
particularly that are not full 104/105-key keyboards, can be
considered "power users") that lack left and right option/alt keys?

From what I can find, even their "compact" keyboards, i.e. laptop
keyboards and the Magic Keyboard, have command and alt/option on
both sides, though they lack a right-hand control key).

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Anders Lindgren]

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Hi,

I've decided to let the question rest -- we clearly can't agree on a layout
that suits everybody and we're not allowed to make the change for Emacs
25.1 anyway. I think it's unfortunate, since 1) the default configuration
of Emacs is unusable in large parts of the world and 2) the "ns" and the
"mac" implementation will now have different defaults.



This functionality is not called "compose", and it's confusing to
> refer to it as such. "compose" is an X11 feature where you can type
> something like "compose, a, a" for å.
>

I used that term (within quotes) to distinguish between the "alt" key and
the function of the key. If you have a better term to use in this
discussion, feel free to suggest it.



> > I've read a number of bug reports, questions, and comments regarding
> > this. The motivation behind the proposed change is for Emacs to
> > provide a decent default behaviour so that it doesn't scare away first
> > time users. (Power user can easily reconfigure the keys using the
> > `ns-xxx-modifier' variables.)
>
> The whole point of having command mapped to super is to allow for
> key bindings that first time users expect. I think your proposal
> would scare away more first time users than the current behavior.
>

I don't object to that -- it would have been great to provide keys both
normal operating system keys as well as the keys for normal Emacs use.
However, the situation is that on OS X, we're one key short (at least on
European keyboards).

We have four normal modifier keys: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, and Cmd. (In addition,
there is the Esc key.)

The following functions are wanted: Shift, Ctrl, Meta, Super (bound to
common operating system keys), and "compose".

Clearly, Shift and Ctrl should have their normal meaning. In my opinion,
the same goes for the Alt key as it's used to write normal characters.

This leaves the Cmd and Esc with two contenders: Meta and Super. Meta is so
important that it needs a proper modifier key, which is why I suggested
binding Cmd to Meta.


On Windows and Linux only the right-hand Alt key (called "AltGr")
> performs this function in the first place, so I'm not convinced that
> it would be as surprising as you think it is.


I'm aware of it, but it's uncommon in the OS X world.


Are there any common keyboards (let's start with if there are any
> sold by Apple - I think people who use third-party PC USB keyboards,
> particularly that are not full 104/105-key keyboards, can be
> considered "power users") that lack left and right option/alt keys?
>

Older Mac laptops don't have a right Alt. However, they have a keypad
return key in that place, which can be mapped to Alt using other tools, so
we can ignore them for the sake of this discussion.


From what I can find, even their "compact" keyboards, i.e. laptop
> keyboards and the Magic Keyboard, have command and alt/option on
> both sides, though they lack a right-hand control key).
>

Initially, I also considered the following:
    Right Alt - "Compose"
    Left Alt - Meta
    Cmd - Super

However, I decided against it as it didn't feel right to bind the left and
right keys differently.

    -- Anders Lindgren

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Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com> writes:

> I've decided to let the question rest -- we clearly can't agree on a layout
> that suits everybody and we're not allowed to make the change for Emacs 25.1
> anyway. I think it's unfortunate, since 1) the default configuration of
> Emacs is unusable in large parts of the world and 2) the "ns" and the "mac"
> implementation will now have different defaults.

Since the "mac" implementation is coming in new, it should have the same
default behavior as the "ns" port in the respect. It's easily configured
otherwise, and having them be different would be a pointless disparity.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:17:41 -0800, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> said:

>> I've decided to let the question rest -- we clearly can't agree on
>> a layout that suits everybody and we're not allowed to make the
>> change for Emacs 25.1 anyway. I think it's unfortunate, since 1)
>> the default configuration of Emacs is unusable in large parts of
>> the world and 2) the "ns" and the "mac" implementation will now
>> have different defaults.

> Since the "mac" implementation is coming in new, it should have the
> same default behavior as the "ns" port in the respect. It's easily
> configured otherwise, and having them be different would be a
> pointless disparity.

It is the NS port that has changed the default behavior in Emacs 23
from the Carbon port in Emacs 22.  The default behavior of the Mac
port is the same as the Carbon port, except that the alt/option keys
now mapped to Emacs ALT modifier for function keys such as arrow keys.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 07:02:43 +0100
> From: Anders Lindgren <andlind@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> I've decided to let the question rest -- we clearly can't agree on a layout
> that suits everybody and we're not allowed to make the change for Emacs 25.1
> anyway. I think it's unfortunate, since 1) the default configuration of Emacs
> is unusable in large parts of the world and 2) the "ns" and the "mac"
> implementation will now have different defaults.

What about my suggestion to have both behaviors available, selectable
by a defcustom?

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[Random832]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> What about my suggestion to have both behaviors available, selectable
> by a defcustom?

This has already been available for quite some time - since 23.1
according to the doc string. The variables are called ns-*-modifier,
with aliases mac-*-modifier. The discussion is on changing the defaults.

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> writes:

> It is the NS port that has changed the default behavior in Emacs 23 from the
> Carbon port in Emacs 22. The default behavior of the Mac port is the same as
> the Carbon port, except that the alt/option keys now mapped to Emacs ALT
> modifier for function keys such as arrow keys.

I understand that historically your choice is appropriate, but we should have
the two build flavors agree in 25.1, and we've had the "ns" behavior as the
default since 23 now.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:00:16 -0500, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> said:

> On Windows and Linux only the right-hand Alt key (called "AltGr")
> performs this function in the first place, so I'm not convinced that
> it would be as surprising as you think it is.

> Are there any common keyboards (let's start with if there are any
> sold by Apple - I think people who use third-party PC USB keyboards,
> particularly that are not full 104/105-key keyboards, can be
> considered "power users") that lack left and right option/alt keys?

At least, the JIS version of Apple Magic Keyboard, which is quite
common in Japan, does not have the right alt/option key.

  http://www.apple.com/jp/shop/product/MLA22J/A/magic-keyboard-jis

With this keyboard, you cannot enter '\' without the option key in the
default Japanese setting on all versions of OS X as far as I know.
And that even applies to the US keyboard if you use the default
Japanese setting on OS X 10.11!

Also, the left and right modifiers cannot be distinguished via Screen
Sharing.app.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp