From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:51:19 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466121132 8724 80.91.229.3 (16 Jun 2016 23:52:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:52:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rswgnu@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, mats.lidell@cag.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 17 01:52:05 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bDh4v-0001c3-1d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:52:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52706 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDh4u-00015R-D6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:52:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39129) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDh4M-00015F-6X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:51:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDh4H-00066x-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:51:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]:33652) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDh4H-00066g-OL; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:51:25 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id b13so22500828pat.0; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:51:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=weu/GA7+eQSknY1+dvvx+hVBpVGMQ5VpPq9ZDDStDoA=; b=pOfEIoP70hEy1u3wHIb1nMwZrbzGxvhKPgM/d6xJrtYT3ASISbYbAOr5XWTf49U8XZ 1J3Ezjc9RiBCeso6LZd/Pk0x8nVPSoYBumwzi8aI3pnrzpOn3KmG/R+UreJZn6p3zrlD uAB9Qco4LA6DaCun39f1q4WqSWAnTyg0qZyayJNGwgu8ieSOIyr7jy31NIVfn2l3Nikt SMV7TGHPkNpDk8lg76JrbHo1Cov3iO/w81lkH0iEm5cfM6lKmhmpNkhyhjrXDvYfRzOg eAV6k0asWWuruqDY3G75SkvK6hC4EKrASmi8D1yaascNdv71vE2qZAeR9q7ZJ3uVMw7H YY6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=weu/GA7+eQSknY1+dvvx+hVBpVGMQ5VpPq9ZDDStDoA=; b=Fei7dy1nVwcxLXMew7/3l4a1tIiQoFXgSpJsGwGGVoEaEtSi4mzTboGF2DjYSRCooE BH7LVlcZqeFQjRlQR3OhuUr9mUYvCuadR3A5NUONuWE6mmUmDEAAi/L9CJSnerKubG4z lOZp6pAhfJb2bulYMQB4ahNm+yVMoQohX34awMG5dcDWd8Sy9Sdh7w9oR2FOygnBKjv0 svHhpEAiWRtiSFAHRzY8+g2QUI8ftgM60BZlb/aJuw0pOnAxS8v6x7FzZHFE43Tqkkix qFfHiBJ2QuI/i9KXRz4i3QoUwp0vYOnIyVYRQyJWckIQZzthtRRsJ9vb8oZ7MGdbr5sl +zkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJBPEcDlNKUV+HrXX6G4kzE+25DbgKEqMGtu8xcFK9TVCZ9nYf7e6jEN+sxnqKQmA== X-Received: by 10.66.85.197 with SMTP id j5mr8165025paz.87.1466121084805; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id pk18sm32069225pab.27.2016.06.16.16.51.22 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:51:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 08B6D961F6B; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:51:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:18:58 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.95 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Richard Stallman , rswgnu@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, mats.lidell@cag.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204438 Archived-At: >>>>> Richard Stallman writes: > The right way to integrate Org mode into Emacs would be to pry out each of > those subfeatures and integrate it individually -- so that a user could use > each of them either with or without Org mode. It is not too late for people > to do this sort of thing, but it should have been done before. However, the super-tight coupling of Org-mode's features allows them to cooperate in ways that are usually "to the point", and sometimes elegant. I find that when we try to develop separate submodules from scratch, and then combine them, so many compromises get made during the effort to integrate these modules (because who can design such a complex system right the first time, understanding both the best way to abstract features, and the proper way to expose their functionality?), that we end up with a huge, unwieldly system that barely delivers on its promises. Some examples do come to mind... I'm not saying Org-mode represents an ideal design. I'm saying that in the real world, it represent an effective strategy for making a system that is maximally *useful*. Hence it's extreme popularity. Even Carsten will admit he's not a software architect by trade; he did what he did based on what he wanted to achieve with Org-mode, and not based on engineering decisions. Now that all the useful work has been done, and experiences gained, it could be a good time to sift out some of the best of its functionality into separate modules. However, I disagree with the assessment that it "went astray" by not striving from separation from the beginning. I would even argue that some projects that begin that way go astray by doing so. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2