From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Filipp Gunbin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 18:24:25 +0300 Message-ID: References: <837fsfm7gq.fsf@gnu.org> <991d9b3f-e2f4-4977-9e78-99d39b04ede5@default> <53fc8fd4-2a3e-4937-bc17-6bf6d5bfff5a@googlegroups.com> <0d865b33-6751-4958-b61b-e0f2b3298a20@googlegroups.com> <83egmllmf0.fsf@gnu.org> <20150513074735.GB7600@tuxteam.de> <20150513123215.GA18233@tuxteam.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431530703 22169 80.91.229.3 (13 May 2015 15:25:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 17:24:54 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YsYWa-0006oN-Sl for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 17:24:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49585 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsYWa-0002bW-AA for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37851) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsYWN-0002bR-Dh for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsYWK-0001db-Hf for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:31 -0400 Original-Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]:40520) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsYWK-0001dK-9e for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:28 -0400 Original-Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD31E20B24 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=HB2jB pL0pDW27TXE+Y751woRSNY=; b=RXL5jwimpm4S2St1l5FcnIk3lNkKWJ5FFpJq/ s545M5swtauFHvF2U3qZoguQnDHxHCfm6sRrOocENOg6iRIpQMNOdMYjHsuaCFtr HN0oOCHyjs+1xDtHOGmratNQbmt2jHYCTLElqrcFKxciJA9+KrJzetV2DjtfRwsW Ii82Ds= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=HB2jBpL0pDW27TXE+Y751woRSNY=; b=srJJj Ll729OmSxpNNx49XwDvUNRaPp8pj6tXdPaaOxgtIBeLDo5Zcuf74bTw+xt+iAy2X PukSYuB0CxkJT+myDGsllY9MEJuyEBr1pRMLNOqSCXK/aFRIx/Z14B73pO0XWgWM NxCnmirIUFxhcw8C1caJGtF453Nv1QTC2+GcmI= X-Sasl-enc: +6WIrBucMDMzNgbdDSeXZdZRvWKOWWjT49olWCrSpMoU 1431530667 Original-Received: from fgunbin.local (unknown [94.25.218.10]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 08121C00021; Wed, 13 May 2015 11:24:26 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20150513123215.GA18233@tuxteam.de> (tomas@tuxteam.de's message of "Wed, 13 May 2015 14:32:15 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (darwin) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.28 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104443 Archived-At: On 13/05/2015 14:32 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > I wasn't advocating to remove the traditional movement keys in > Emacs. I was rather questioning that they deserve such a prominent > place in a beginner's tutorial (although a link, with a short > explanation of their advantages seems to make a lot of sense in any > case). To speak for myself - the best tutorial for me was the key bindings cheatsheet. Of course, I barely understood the description of some of them (`C-x c-x', for example), but it was interesting to experiment. >> Rather, large amount of different keys to remember could lead to >> thinking of a suitable typing scheme and that's imho is an enjoyable >> thing. > > Different finger memories, different models. The key bindings of the > arrow keys (with and without modifiers) might make more sense to some -- > especially when you have an "exotic" keyboard layout: cf. the other > current thread in this list. At least, the arrow keys stay invariant. The arrow keys aren't conveniently located, even the touch pad (on laptops which have it) is easier to access. >> When I realized that right-hand modifiers can be used as well as >> left-hand, it made my experience much more pleasant. > > Yep, and with some binding magic one can re-use those funny (nowadays > nearly ubiquitous) "Windows" keys. But this is all advanced material, > where our topic here is "Tutorial(s) for beginners". For me, the main point is whether the modifier key is doubled on both sides of Space. "ctrl" key on the Mac keyboard, for example, is not. As I can see on my colleagues' keyboards, "Win" key is. For a beginner, some bindings (like `C-t') may seem too hard to press unless they are pressed with two hands, which is not the obvious way. Filipp