Re: records-mode ?

Re: records-mode ?

[Bastien Guerry]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> What I am looking for is something as simple as:
>
> 1. free form notes taking mode

Org has this.

> 2. quick search

Org has many search facility.

> 3. no setup if possible

Org setup can be as minimalist as possible.

> 4. not too many features (I want to concentrate in the note
>    taking and not in the note tweaking/customising/whatever)

This is up to you.  

> 5. still maintained so that I can report
>    bugs/fixes/patches/requests

Org is actively developed and maintained.

> After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
> really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
> indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
> (except by adding links here and there).

As you know, I am an active user of Org, so my feedback is surely
strongly biased here.  But I would be curious of a more concrete example
of what you call "indexing" and what you exactly need.  Maybe what you
need is not another tool, but a different way to use existing ones.

-- 
Bastien

records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi,

Is there anybody *still* using records-mode as note taking tool
with GNU Emacs ? If so, where can I find the 2.0 branch I already
saw 1 or 2 years ago ?

By the way, is notes-mode (yet another note taking mode) a good
candidate too ? In what the differ ? What I am looking for is
something as simple as:

1. free form notes taking mode
2. quick search
3. no setup if possible
4. not too many features (I want to concentrate in the note
   taking and not in the note tweaking/customising/whatever)
5. still maintained so that I can report
   bugs/fixes/patches/requests

After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
(except by adding links here and there).

Regards

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[William Xu]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
> really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
> indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
> (except by adding links here and there).

How does `outline-mode' feel?  I use it for keeping various notes.

-- 
William

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   > After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
   > really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
   > indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
   > (except by adding links here and there).

   How does `outline-mode' feel?  I use it for keeping various notes.

Does it have something like an index of notes to quickly know
where to retrieve a note/information ? This is a major
requirement for me. In records-mode, pressing C-c C-j, I have an
index buffer which shows a list of keywords and the respective
notes entries (There is something close to this in notes-mode).

The big no-no about records-mode and notes-mode currently is that
they seem "dead" and unmaintained.

As Bastien said, maybe I am misusing Org. Maybe Org is really
what I want but concentrating only on the note taking aspect and
not using planning/todo handling.

As far as I remember, org-mode and remember has turned out very
good combination by the past _but_, I always feel lost when it
comes to « searching » informations -ie. I do not like the search
process.

What I need, if I go back to Org, is a setup like this:

#1. One note page per day classified ala notes-mode (and I also
    want to have the possibility to have notes not related to dates
    -ie. independant notes (by, say, subject)
#2. An index of all my note entries (with quick search on
    keywords, tags, etc.)
#3. I want to be able to narrow on a note entry (this is easy in
    every mode I have tried)
#4. navigation facilities to previous/next day (as is done by
    records-mode and notes-mode). This is an important point for
    my job position.

Free form notes taking is, off course, a _must have_ for me.

Regards,

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Tim X]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> Is there anybody *still* using records-mode as note taking tool
> with GNU Emacs ? If so, where can I find the 2.0 branch I already
> saw 1 or 2 years ago ?
>
> By the way, is notes-mode (yet another note taking mode) a good
> candidate too ? In what the differ ? What I am looking for is
> something as simple as:
>
> 1. free form notes taking mode
> 2. quick search
> 3. no setup if possible
> 4. not too many features (I want to concentrate in the note
>    taking and not in the note tweaking/customising/whatever)
> 5. still maintained so that I can report
>    bugs/fixes/patches/requests
>
> After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
> really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
> indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
> (except by adding links here and there).
>

Both org mode and planner mode use a stand-alone utility called
remember. I think this might meet your needs. You can configure it
fairly easily to do some pretty useful stuff. I've seen examples of
usinig it to jsut keep notes in a notes file.

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: records-mode ?

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>    Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>    > After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
>    > really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
>    > indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
>    > (except by adding links here and there).
>
>    How does `outline-mode' feel?  I use it for keeping various notes.
>
> Does it have something like an index of notes to quickly know
> where to retrieve a note/information ? This is a major
> requirement for me. In records-mode, pressing C-c C-j, I have an
> index buffer which shows a list of keywords and the respective
> notes entries (There is something close to this in notes-mode).
>
> The big no-no about records-mode and notes-mode currently is that
> they seem "dead" and unmaintained.
>
> As Bastien said, maybe I am misusing Org. Maybe Org is really
> what I want but concentrating only on the note taking aspect and
> not using planning/todo handling.
>
> As far as I remember, org-mode and remember has turned out very
> good combination by the past _but_, I always feel lost when it
> comes to « searching » informations -ie. I do not like the search
> process.
>
> What I need, if I go back to Org, is a setup like this:
>
> #1. One note page per day classified ala notes-mode (and I also
>     want to have the possibility to have notes not related to dates
>     -ie. independant notes (by, say, subject)
> #2. An index of all my note entries (with quick search on
>     keywords, tags, etc.)
> #3. I want to be able to narrow on a note entry (this is easy in
>     every mode I have tried)
> #4. navigation facilities to previous/next day (as is done by
>     records-mode and notes-mode). This is an important point for
>     my job position.
>
> Free form notes taking is, off course, a _must have_ for me.
>
> Regards,
>
> 	Xavier

Hi, i use planner and it do almost all what you need.
You can take notes for a special project or daily notes
You can link all these notes as you want and yes there is 
an index note with search...etc.
I like also occur to find something in my notes.
You can use narrow and allout in planner-mode but i don't
know if you can narrow just one note (except if you narrow region)
You can also take notes from a file or url or any place with remember.
-- 
A + Thierry
Pub key: http://pgp.mit.edu

Re: records-mode ?

[William Xu]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>    Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>    > After having tried Org Mode, Muse, Howm (a little) they are
>    > really good package but too feature full and none offer a good
>    > indexing system to retrieve informations quickly and easily
>    > (except by adding links here and there).
>
>    How does `outline-mode' feel?  I use it for keeping various notes.
>
> Does it have something like an index of notes to quickly know
> where to retrieve a note/information ? 

It has an index, like an index of a book, a pdf document.  You can
toggle index mode or full display mode, hide/display some specific
section. Give an example, 

,----[ show all ]
| * this month
| 
| ** today
| 
| Nice day.
| 
| ** tomorrow
| 
| Also nice day.
| 
| * next month
`----

,----[ index ]
| * this month..
| ** today..
| ** tomorrow..
| * next month..
`----

,----[ show only today ]
| * this month..
| ** today
| 
|  Nice day.
| 
| ** tomorrow..
| * next month..
`----

The above should give you a feel of it.

> This is a major
> requirement for me. In records-mode, pressing C-c C-j, I have an
> index buffer which shows a list of keywords and the respective
> notes entries (There is something close to this in notes-mode).

index buffer?  So there are multiple buffers?  Oh, outline has only one.

> As Bastien said, maybe I am misusing Org. Maybe Org is really
> what I want but concentrating only on the note taking aspect and
> not using planning/todo handling.

planning/todo thing also keeps me away. I used to try to learn
planner.el(part of Muse now?), which turned out rather too complicated
to me. This experience also makes me dare not try org mode yet.

> As far as I remember, org-mode and remember has turned out very
> good combination by the past _but_, I always feel lost when it
> comes to « searching » informations -ie. I do not like the search
> process.
>
> What I need, if I go back to Org, is a setup like this:
>
> #1. One note page per day classified ala notes-mode (and I also
>     want to have the possibility to have notes not related to dates
>     -ie. independant notes (by, say, subject)
> #2. An index of all my note entries (with quick search on
>     keywords, tags, etc.)
> #3. I want to be able to narrow on a note entry (this is easy in
>     every mode I have tried)
> #4. navigation facilities to previous/next day (as is done by
>     records-mode and notes-mode). This is an important point for
>     my job position.
>
> Free form notes taking is, off course, a _must have_ for me.

I think outline supports all above, except that I don't understand the
keywords, tags thing in #2.  Outline mode probably has no such thing.

-- 
William

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi

   Both org mode and planner mode use a stand-alone utility called
   remember. I think this might meet your needs. You can configure it
   fairly easily to do some pretty useful stuff. I've seen examples of
   usinig it to jsut keep notes in a notes file.

I already have used both modes (org and remember) but they need
many tweaking to fully suit my (basic) needs and I am always
struggling to stay connected/concentrated on what I need to write
vs. my obsessive desire to tweak/customize my setup.

As I have already told on another post, maybe you are right and
Org is really what I need. Maybe not. Planner is another solution
and is covering one point: one note page per day.

Still looking for the perfect solution.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi,

I have used planner in the past, I tried again not that long ago
and still, I find it too complex. There is so much to do/to setup
before being able to use it that I gave up.

Well, I think my devotion will go either on notes-mode or
records. I am testing them and I will see how things go.

There is even another possibility I will probably try: C-x 4 a :)

Thank you all for you help.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi,

   planning/todo thing also keeps me away. I used to try to learn
   planner.el(part of Muse now?), which turned out rather too complicated
   to me. This experience also makes me dare not try org mode yet.

Sadly that's also my opinion. These two are really great modes
but I am a totally deorganized guy who can't plan and concentrate
on things todo. I have tried to follow GTD methodology at some
time but sadly, I failed at it :)

As for your outline idea, I do not think I will love to stay in
an form-imposed tool like this. I really want free form without
barriers (or the minimum if any). This is why I love ideas behind
notes-mode and records-mode: I write things as they come to me
withtout any distractions. That's the best tool for me I guess.

Regards,

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Tim X]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>
> Does it have something like an index of notes to quickly know
> where to retrieve a note/information ? This is a major
> requirement for me. In records-mode, pressing C-c C-j, I have an
> index buffer which shows a list of keywords and the respective
> notes entries (There is something close to this in notes-mode).
>
> The big no-no about records-mode and notes-mode currently is that
> they seem "dead" and unmaintained.
>
> As Bastien said, maybe I am misusing Org. Maybe Org is really
> what I want but concentrating only on the note taking aspect and
> not using planning/todo handling.
>
> As far as I remember, org-mode and remember has turned out very
> good combination by the past _but_, I always feel lost when it
> comes to « searching » informations -ie. I do not like the search
> process.
>

Sounds to me like you could get very close to what you want by using org
modes tags facility. It has fairly sophisticated tag based searching and
displaying etc. 

> What I need, if I go back to Org, is a setup like this:
>
> #1. One note page per day classified ala notes-mode (and I also
>     want to have the possibility to have notes not related to dates
>     -ie. independant notes (by, say, subject)
> #2. An index of all my note entries (with quick search on
>     keywords, tags, etc.)
> #3. I want to be able to narrow on a note entry (this is easy in
>     every mode I have tried)
> #4. navigation facilities to previous/next day (as is done by
>     records-mode and notes-mode). This is an important point for
>     my job position.
>
> Free form notes taking is, off course, a _must have_ for me.
>

It sounds to me like planner mode would be close to what you want. What
you outline is very close to how I work with planner mode. 

I have the planner day pages and it has support for moving around -
previous day, next day etc. 

I have various project pages with notes and tasks for each project. When
I schedule a task, it appears in the day page once the date it has been
scheduled for comes around. this gives me the best of both worlds. I
have day pages that I can use to check what I did or will have to do on
a specific day, but I also have project pages that I can check to get an
overview of the tasks and notes relating to a specific project. I also
use the time clocking facilities so that in my day pages, I get an
overview of where I spent time for that day and in the project pages, I
get an overview of how I've spent time on that project. 

I use remember to make notes. A copy of the note is put on the day page
and one in the project page for the project I specify 

I've not used the search capabilities of planner mode much, so can't
comment on it. However, the combination of planner mode with a few of
the advanced config options is a very powerful system. I also use org
mode, but I mainly use it for organising my thoughts on a specific topic
- often mainly as an outliner as I prefer the planning and scheduling
approach of planner mode. 

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: records-mode ?

[Tim X]

BTW, I was going to ask if you are actually having problems with records
mode? I use to use it prior to moving to planner mode. Last time I tried
it I found it worked fine. While it may not be maintained at the moment,
that doesn't necessarily mean its broken or of now use. I've got a
couple of packages I've been using for 10 years that haven't been
updated since the mid-90s and they still work just fine. 

regards,

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: records-mode ?

[Leo]

On 2008-02-20 02:00 +0000, Xavier Maillard wrote:
> I already have used both modes (org and remember) but they need
> many tweaking to fully suit my (basic) needs and I am always
> struggling to stay connected/concentrated on what I need to write
> vs. my obsessive desire to tweak/customize my setup.

I think text mode suits you.

-- 
.:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.

          Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   On 2008-02-20 02:00 +0000, Xavier Maillard wrote:
   > I already have used both modes (org and remember) but they need
   > many tweaking to fully suit my (basic) needs and I am always
   > struggling to stay connected/concentrated on what I need to write
   > vs. my obsessive desire to tweak/customize my setup.

   I think text mode suits you.

Almost, yes :)

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi,

   BTW, I was going to ask if you are actually having problems with records
   mode?

Indeed, yes. Latest released version won't build :) I checked out
the CVS code to retrieve the missing files (the tar file is not
very consistent) and it just does the trick now.

I am now evaluating both records and notes. My preference goes to
notes-mode since its author is answering to all my questions.

   I use to use it prior to moving to planner mode. Last time I tried
   it I found it worked fine. While it may not be maintained at the moment,
   that doesn't necessarily mean its broken or of now use. I've got a
   couple of packages I've been using for 10 years that haven't been
   updated since the mid-90s and they still work just fine. 

So do I, this was a bad argument ;) Sorry.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   Sounds to me like you could get very close to what you want by using org
   modes tags facility. It has fairly sophisticated tag based searching and
   displaying etc. 

As said earlier, I find Org and planner fantastic, really. The
main problem with them, _for me_, is that they just do way too
much. I always feel dumb and lost when trying to do simple
things. For example, searching in Org makes me sick. The other
problem with these tools, more for Org than planner, is that I
take way too much time to "organize" my data; I am always
changing how I do things, how I classify/tag them, and I am
always playing with latest package features.

At least, with something more basic, I am not tempted to "play"
but just to do and that's the most important thing in fact.

   It sounds to me like planner mode would be close to what you want. What
   you outline is very close to how I work with planner mode. 

   I have the planner day pages and it has support for moving around -
   previous day, next day etc. 

   I have various project pages with notes and tasks for each project. When
   I schedule a task, it appears in the day page once the date it has been
   scheduled for comes around. this gives me the best of both worlds. I
   have day pages that I can use to check what I did or will have to do on
   a specific day, but I also have project pages that I can check to get an
   overview of the tasks and notes relating to a specific project. I also
   use the time clocking facilities so that in my day pages, I get an
   overview of where I spent time for that day and in the project pages, I
   get an overview of how I've spent time on that project. 

Since I can't follow a discipline, I am no longer planning
anything. At my job position, tasks are coming all day long,
project is managed by project manager and it's their job to
verify I can work on a project and to plan any task needed. I am
only concentrating on doing the job.

I am like a FIFO: First crying, First served :) When a task hits
me, it is always urgent and of higher priority than anything I
was working on before (dixit my boss) thus the needless of any
organisational tool for me ;)

Otherwise, I would have had probably stuck with Org and friends.

   I use remember to make notes. A copy of the note is put on the day page
   and one in the project page for the project I specify 

Remember will probably stay here too as an helper in taking
(really quick) notes. I can't live without remember, this is
probably one of the most important package for me. I just need to
figure out how I can make it cooperate with either records or
notes-mode.

Anyway, thank you very much for all your answers.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Kevin Rodgers]

Xavier Maillard wrote:
> I am like a FIFO: First crying, First served :) When a task hits
> me, it is always urgent and of higher priority than anything I
> was working on before (dixit my boss) thus the needless of any
> organisational tool for me ;)

M-x LIFO-mode :-)

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: records-mode ?

[Bastien]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> I am now evaluating both records and notes. My preference goes to
> notes-mode since its author is answering to all my questions.

I don't know notes-mode.  Can you make it interact with remember?

As for the arguments about Org or planner having too many features, I
don't understand them.  You won't get disciplined by just using tools
that have less features.  And remember your living in Emacs, so there
is always a doctor behind you :)

In any case, if you find time to make a tutorial about notes-mode and
remember, I guess the Org and planner community will be interested as
well. 

Best,

-- 
Bastien

Re: records-mode ?

[Bastien Guerry]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> I always feel dumb and lost when trying to do simple things. For
> example, searching in Org makes me sick.

What exactly makes you sick?  Maybe we can improve this.

> At least, with something more basic, I am not tempted to "play"
> but just to do and that's the most important thing in fact.

Ever tried to turn off font-lock?

A few years ago, I would have found it a crazy idea, because the little
Daisy Miller in me *enjoys* colors so much. But now I also enjoy a gray
world, at least from time to time.

Being lost in the jungle makes you concentrate on surviving (i.e. read
or write the things at point, not the remote sparkling stuff.)

-- 
Bastien

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard wrote:
   > I am like a FIFO: First crying, First served :) When a task hits
   > me, it is always urgent and of higher priority than anything I
   > was working on before (dixit my boss) thus the needless of any
   > organisational tool for me ;)

   M-x LIFO-mode :-)

Well in fact there is no notion of First or Last; all is always
_hot_ and _urgent_ whatever it is (even tweaking/tuning a
database server is urgent...) ;)

I need a M-x vacation RET ;)

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi Bastien,

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   > I am now evaluating both records and notes. My preference goes to
   > notes-mode since its author is answering to all my questions.

   I don't know notes-mode.  Can you make it interact with remember?

Currently, there is no support for this ut it could be really a
simple task.

   As for the arguments about Org or planner having too many features, I
   don't understand them.  You won't get disciplined by just using tools
   that have less features.  And remember your living in Emacs, so there
   is always a doctor behind you :)

The problem is not the features, the problem is that I am
distracted by all of them :) I am lazy but curious so if I am
given a tool such as org-mode, it is unlikely I will be very
productive with it ;)

   In any case, if you find time to make a tutorial about notes-mode and
   remember, I guess the Org and planner community will be interested as
   well. 

notes-mode is so simple and so easy that I do not think I will
have many things to tell about it. The process is simply:

1. emacsclient
2. open the note file of the day
3. jot down the notes
4. close the emacsclient frame

I do not have enough archive to use anything else. The author of
this package told me he had archives since '94 (~ 1Gb of data).
As I no longer have a TODO list, I do not promise anything for
the tutorial :)

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Bastien]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> Currently, there is no support for this ut it could be really a
> simple task.

The task of supporting remember for notes-mode is a good one in itself.
But in your case, this is another distraction.  

BTW, you didn't tell me what was not very convenient with the search
facilities in org-mode.

-- 
Bastien

Re: records-mode ?

[rustom]

On Feb 22, 5:35 am, Bastien Guerry <Bastien.Gue...@ens.fr> wrote:
> Xavier Maillard <x...@gnu.org> writes:
> > I always feel dumb and lost when trying to do simple things. For
> > example, searching in Org makes me sick.
>
> What exactly makes you sick?  Maybe we can improve this.
>

My own take on why some people may complain about org-mode:

Org mode is many things...

* A tree-structurer
  The outlining ability
* A brainstormer
  export-as-mind-map
* A GTD framework
  which includes
*** a todo list manager
*** a time-tracker
*** a (day) planner
*** project-manager

Unfortunately in the last case (GTD) Ive been a dismal failure and
kind of given up on it. I dont think this is because some feature --
search -- or whatever 'makes me sick' nor even because of 'too many
features'

The problem as I see it is that GTD is such a large task (Xavier
himself has said so http://www.brool.com/?p=82 ) that even the fairly
large and extensive org documentation is not enough to help grapple
with it.

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   > Currently, there is no support for this ut it could be really a
   > simple task.

   The task of supporting remember for notes-mode is a good one in itself.
   But in your case, this is another distraction.  

remember.el is all *but* a distraction. I abuse it all day long
and it is really helpful to have it.

   BTW, you didn't tell me what was not very convenient with the search
   facilities in org-mode.

It is hard to tell. To be brief, I am lost with all the
possibilities offered (tags, categories and all the mixing
possibilities around). And tweaking this is, for me, a real
distraction. I always want to do complex stuff where I should
not. As I said, it is all about me and my "fascination" to
procrastinate. Yes, procrastination is what could best define me.
Sadly :/

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: records-mode ?

[Bastien]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>    Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>    > Currently, there is no support for this ut it could be really a
>    > simple task.
>
>    The task of supporting remember for notes-mode is a good one in itself.
>    But in your case, this is another distraction.  
>
> remember.el is all *but* a distraction. I abuse it all day long
> and it is really helpful to have it.

I meant: working on the integration of remember within notes-mode would
just be another distraction.

-- 
Bastien

Re: records-mode ?

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   >    Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
   >
   >    > Currently, there is no support for this ut it could be really a
   >    > simple task.
   >
   >    The task of supporting remember for notes-mode is a good one in itself.
   >    But in your case, this is another distraction.  
   >
   > remember.el is all *but* a distraction. I abuse it all day long
   > and it is really helpful to have it.

   I meant: working on the integration of remember within notes-mode would
   just be another distraction.

Actually, yes but I would have done it during my spare time
(leisure time if you prefer) :)

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org