From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#24518: 25.2.50; dired-mark-extension with prefix arg fails Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:34:08 -0700 Message-ID: References: <837fa1cy6l.fsf@gnu.org> <8337kpcvdc.fsf@gnu.org> <874m554ey2.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <83y42hbe3g.fsf@gnu.org> <87oa3d2qho.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <83vaxlb5ge.fsf@gnu.org> <87fuop2jsy.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <83intlaygm.fsf@gnu.org> <8737kp2ih4.fsf@linux-m68k.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1474828524 7574 195.159.176.226 (25 Sep 2016 18:35:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:35:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1 (darwin) Cc: 24518@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman , tino.calancha@gmail.com To: Andreas Schwab Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 25 20:35:19 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGk-00018T-Gi for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 20:35:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39958 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGi-0006pi-39 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:35:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44253) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGX-0006nj-8W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:35:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGU-0005do-02 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:35:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:57813) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGT-0005dj-UI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:35:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1boEGT-0008On-Md for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:35:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 24518 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 24518-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B24518.147482846332232 (code B ref 24518); Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:35:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 24518) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2016 18:34:23 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1boEFr-0008No-0R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:34:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi0-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54]:34502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1boEFp-0008Nc-Lb for 24518@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:34:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi0-f54.google.com with SMTP id a62so185862572oib.1 for <24518@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:34:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=PKgKtKP9UnDuvR3bO69Uh8nZW0tRY16ecKtrWQGinzU=; b=uroHQVwwd3Lpj3Jy5Dhdvdr2X6QL4MH7U/t84WzNtUWNjxiEUVha87qyTC2wQ5fJ9I HOuZ7F9vaXrcgYsgaFZSRpwt7XBc0JZAd26JW2X3Ndv1dQII9wN6oLY5oH6t8baiZJas od/F9BFliBQhvEKNmwQNsCzfMt+maz2dz9M9yelLpRaTihTxWXyCMrgi0wJlJckE+vhQ fx0T/syL6/la81pCjm9WVOe9aGBc48OPRRNYxzdCb+QeN6orARc05ub3vNDG7BLINhhM jWoZ4Qe8p0LYXlYVpeK5j8VZt7NqEOfcG+5XWejDIygWZpnt+SEXbCBqr8J+9H7AcRwE HmGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=PKgKtKP9UnDuvR3bO69Uh8nZW0tRY16ecKtrWQGinzU=; b=AwZuZqu853rzZ8YSLzh662KIocQl0qKDogTWzMS+I4sf0d9yzit+bXirwXBj/rx2Ot 1UtDqiIWZGukMkp4ZC0Eq88+acNkFT8ax/Jc+6oL2UPrju2ldyVNf4sX+qQfrr4c+eWR nDPDJfjNgklyIAviqGAjg4KD8atE2dxH8M4k3oQFW6fIiFgBrLn0lrpGwUqSBP2KoNFf 52A926hc76TR7CNNJkHsa1x3xXSZclhN+HXfMwZw4FWDkO6N9vFTcM7GmGcMbpFyjor9 5+RgnkcbSPHoaIvMnUSb/gjNPzIF8Rn67gfDtZgvj2vULpJIpD1QYtkpElNNqiINFogS wf4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwOg+PdJNM8scPVZdtUcl7V4DSXC2mhWe93oyxRDbS/aryniLV6YRD02aoreshxovw== X-Received: by 10.202.240.135 with SMTP id o129mr20638354oih.14.1474828456071; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.69.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o8sm525346oia.28.2016.09.25.11.34.14 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 32FE4287395D; Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:34:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8737kp2ih4.fsf@linux-m68k.org> (Andreas Schwab's message of "Sat, 24 Sep 2016 21:41:43 +0200") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:123687 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "AS" =3D=3D Andreas Schwab writes: AS> Yes, it is. It's a misfeature. It makes it alien with all the other dir= ed AS> commands. Hello, I'm just joining this conversation, but I've read all the backlog. First, if Eli believes that maintenance requires retaining a 22 year old feature -- however improbable its use, however idiosyncratic its behavior w= hen compared to other dired commands -- that's the end of the discussion here. I ask that you respect this. You need to convince your maintainer of the meri= ts of the change, not argue that his decision is without ground. He has all the ground he needs due to his role on this project. Do I think it's a wart that should be fixed? Maybe. But we have to tread ve= ry carefully here. We have a commitment to those whom we maintain Emacs for: to avoid gratuitously changing long-standing behavior without considering every angle. If we allowed everyone to change whatever annoyed them, just because they thought it was an improvement, we'd be in a terrible state. I'd like to see a couple of things happen from here: 1. Begin a discussion on emacs-devel about the behavior of this command. Solicit the wisdom of other old-timers on that list. Present your case dispassionately, in terms of what we gain from such a change. 2. Somehow poll our users to find out if, truly, no one uses this command.= We may not find those people -- to date, we've been terrible at effective polling -- but if we can't find a single person who wants the feature, = and many who want uniformity, at least we have some data to consider. Calling each other reasonable or unreasonable, or debating this as though it should "just be obvious" and thus Eli's opinion doesn't matter, is not the = way to make progress. _What he says goes_, because in the end, he controls who = is allowed to commit changes and who isn't. Let's focus on the technical issues, and broaden the discussion. So far, a heated debate between three people will never convince me that we need to change 22 years of prior art, either. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJX6BihAAoJEMFE2PTxn+Ywz0AMAJEJ18i+KQDqnPs4VbR/N22i BY3DovKjGc/GyU1OL5l6uA136xIZaVu5f3HkojCDfdVjpoyuSg4NnaEfcREP10Jk rBI89ZPD0Gz8FY5krceVDCHG1SErDAQMHRW4m1BxG5Uq+AD54GspYghJxi9XuME3 xfPdOV+fM9H7KV6s/THZDh0J/23NzrNoXYIBuv+6XH5ZXbnLTJih6QA344qMT45l 32Qj/3+vXmd4yXFJgpHq5DDQki6iKmDtLurtUQSX2yae3MGDk77CCBatyDljRO61 Yf9N8QtkU7oIp012cNSWIJsTt7Oru1zkCpqPrOi7NWfOYUneSeOBOKnmTN+sLaGF HlcN7e+4pxPT99knByaInQV3iRg2aAqMiCMsg5f+gxxqYK30xY+q2YTqqP73+zck 14Wa5E3EGkAtNJUGPq1PQrZnRaAWJIJnI8ygA+JKIlCSJY/tLeq4sG5xj9paKHo+ PbqEJAMfIEh0JYhxPuR+m+Sk0TwVmH5sQItOp6kOoQ== =f3sN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--