* cairo now default? @ 2020-01-28 10:13 Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 10:22 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 14:08 ` Eric S Fraga 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use cairo and not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't remember cairo as default. Users now have presumably to specify --without-cairo. Also I seem to recall someone here saying that HarfBuzz should be used when cairo is used. Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 10:13 cairo now default? Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 10:22 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 11:21 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 14:08 ` Eric S Fraga 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:13:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use cairo and Colin> not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't remember cairo as Colin> default. Users now have presumably to specify --without-cairo. Also I Colin> seem to recall someone here saying that HarfBuzz should be used when Colin> cairo is used. Did configure not say that at the end? I guess you donʼt have HarfBuzz headers installed, they're used if they're found. configure.ac: if test "${HAVE_CAIRO}" = "yes" && test "${HAVE_HARFBUZZ}" = no; then AC_MSG_WARN([This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library, but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library. We recommend the use of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development packages.]) fi etc/NEWS: * Installation Changes in Emacs 28.1 ** Cairo graphics library is now used by default if found. '--with-cairo' is now the default, if the appropriate development files are found by 'configure'. Note that building with Cairo means using Pango instead of libXFT for font support. Since Pango 1.44 has removed support for bitmapped fonts, this may require you to adjust your font settings. Note also that 'FontBackend' settings in ".Xdefaults" or ".Xresources", or 'font-backend' frame parameter settings in your init files, may need to be adjusted, as 'xft' is no longer a valid backend when using Cairo. Use 'ftcrhb' if your Emacs was built with HarfBuzz text shaping support, and 'ftcr' otherwise. You can determine this by checking 'system-configuration-features'. The 'ftcr' backend will still be available when HarfBuzz is supported, but will not be used by default. We strongly recommend building with HarBuzz support. 'x' is still a valid backend. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 10:22 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 11:21 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 11:30 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:13:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use Colin> cairo and not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't Colin> remember cairo as default. Users now have presumably to Colin> specify --without-cairo. Also I seem to recall someone here Colin> saying that HarfBuzz should be used when cairo is used. > Did configure not say that at the end? I guess you donʼt have > HarfBuzz headers installed, they're used if they're found. > configure.ac: > if test "${HAVE_CAIRO}" = "yes" && test "${HAVE_HARFBUZZ}" = > no; then AC_MSG_WARN([This configuration uses the Cairo graphics > library, but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library. We recommend > the use of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz > development packages.]) fi > etc/NEWS: > * Installation Changes in Emacs 28.1 > ** Cairo graphics library is now used by default if found. > '--with-cairo' is now the default, if the appropriate development > files are found by 'configure'. Note that building with Cairo > means using Pango instead of libXFT for font support. Since Pango > 1.44 has removed support for bitmapped fonts, this may require you > to adjust your font settings. > Note also that 'FontBackend' settings in ".Xdefaults" or > ".Xresources", or 'font-backend' frame parameter settings in your > init files, may need to be adjusted, as 'xft' is no longer a valid > backend when using Cairo. Use 'ftcrhb' if your Emacs was built > with HarfBuzz text shaping support, and 'ftcr' otherwise. You can > determine this by checking 'system-configuration-features'. The > 'ftcr' backend will still be available when HarfBuzz is supported, > but will not be used by default. We strongly recommend building > with HarBuzz support. 'x' is still a valid backend. The configure warning: "This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library, but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library. We recommend the use of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development packages." occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then scrolls up disappearing from the screen before the configure command ends. It's easily missed and the user who doesn't have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled, with a working emacs but one that looks unfamiliar and ugly. If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why - is this going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the subsequent distribution? Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 11:21 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 11:30 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 11:49 ` Colin Baxter 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:21:37 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> The configure warning: Colin> "This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library, Colin> but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library. We recommend the use Colin> of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development Colin> packages." Colin> occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then scrolls up Colin> disappearing from the screen before the configure command ends. It's Colin> easily missed and the user who doesn't have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled, Colin> with a working emacs but one that looks unfamiliar and ugly. Not here itʼs not, itʼs the very last thing printed by configure, just after the mailutils warning. Colin> If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why - is this Colin> going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the subsequent distribution? Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is unmaintained and causes crashes. Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 11:30 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 11:49 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 12:01 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:21:37 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> The configure warning: Colin> "This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library, but not Colin> the HarfBuzz font shaping library. We recommend the use of Colin> HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz Colin> development packages." Colin> occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then Colin> scrolls up disappearing from the screen before the configure Colin> command ends. It's easily missed and the user who doesn't Colin> have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled, with a working emacs but one Colin> that looks unfamiliar and ugly. > Not here itʼs not, itʼs the very last thing printed by configure, > just after the mailutils warning. Yes, you're right - my mistake. Colin> If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why - Colin> is this going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the Colin> subsequent distribution? > Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is > unmaintained and causes crashes. Ok, so be it. I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch out a fair number of users. We will see. Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 11:49 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 12:01 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 20:06 ` James Cloos 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is >> unmaintained and causes crashes. Colin> Ok, so be it. Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch out a fair Colin> number of users. We will see. Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have issues, and there should be not be too many of those. Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 12:01 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 13:09 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 13:10 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 20:06 ` James Cloos 1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >>> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is >>> unmaintained and causes crashes. Colin> Ok, so be it. Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch Colin> out a fair number of users. We will see. > Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from > bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might > have issues, and there should be not be too many of those. I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does seem that old. Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 13:09 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 14:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 13:10 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, although Colin> Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz dev library, Debian Colin> 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does seem that old. Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them. Robert PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 13:09 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 14:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:09 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:14 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does Colin> seem that old. > Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people > who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up > continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them. But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from ./configure when there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user who's always just done ./configure will see something different. > PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it. Yes, thanks. I haven't yet traced the reason. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 14:44 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 15:09 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:27 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 15:14 ` Robert Pluim 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> "Colin" == Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes: >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does Colin> seem that old. >> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, >> people who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up >> continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them. Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from Colin> ./configure when there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user Colin> who's always just done ./configure will see something Colin> different. >> PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it. Colin> Yes, thanks. I haven't yet traced the reason. I have a serious flat-finger problem today!! What I meant to type is "emacs -q" from ./configure --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from ./configure when there are is NO harfbuzz dev lib. Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 15:09 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 15:27 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:09:49 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I have a serious flat-finger problem today!! What I meant to type is Colin> "emacs -q" from ./configure --without-cairo looks different from "emacs Colin> -q" from ./configure when there are is NO harfbuzz dev lib. That makes no difference to me: they still both look the same. What differences are you seeing? Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 14:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:09 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 15:14 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 16:24 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1219 bytes --] >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:44:51 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does Colin> seem that old. >> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people >> who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up >> continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them. Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from ./configure when Colin> there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user who's always just done Colin> ./configure will see something different. Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it will be fine under Cairo. Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is without? (both are using HarfBuzz) [-- Attachment #2: emacs-1.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 9979 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: emacs-2.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 9914 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 15:14 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 16:24 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 16:37 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1695 bytes --] >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:44:51 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does Colin> seem that old. >>> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, >>> people who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end >>> up continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for >>> them. Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from Colin> ./configure when there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user Colin> who's always just done ./configure will see something Colin> different. > Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things > wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it > will be fine under Cairo. > Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is > without? (both are using HarfBuzz) I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine: A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png ./configure --without-cairo B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png ./configure The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no "Harfbuzz" warning message. I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A. Best wishes, [-- Attachment #2: emacs1-scratch.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 27996 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: emacs1-splash.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 109095 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: emacs2-scratch.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 25184 bytes --] [-- Attachment #5: emacs2-splash.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 91701 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 16:24 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 16:37 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 16:47 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:24:59 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >> Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things >> wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it >> will be fine under Cairo. >> Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is >> without? (both are using HarfBuzz) Colin> I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine: Colin> A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png Colin> ./configure --without-cairo Colin> B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png Colin> ./configure Colin> The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no Colin> "Harfbuzz" warning message. Colin> I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A. To me they look slightly sharper. Tomayto, tomahto. I donʼt think either look bad. (Iʼm assuming they're both using the same font). Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 16:37 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 16:47 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 16:55 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: Robert> To me they look slightly sharper. Tomayto, tomahto. I donʼt Robert> think either look bad. (Iʼm assuming they're both using the Robert> same font). Robert> Robert But there is a difference - slight perhaps - and I think some users will notice and wonder why. Should they not be forewarned of the possibility, or do you think that might cause even more confusion? Best wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 16:47 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 16:55 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:47:47 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> But there is a difference - slight perhaps - and I think some users will Colin> notice and wonder why. Should they not be forewarned of the possibility, Colin> or do you think that might cause even more confusion? Iʼm in the "leave it alone" camp, rather than talking about possible display artifacts that people may not see (and, cynically, people donʼt read NEWS before complaining anyway, the same way they donʼt read PROBLEMS or look in the bug database). Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 16:24 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 16:37 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:49 ` Robert Pluim 1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: Robert Pluim, Emacs developers On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 23:26, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote: > I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine: > > A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png > > ./configure --without-cairo > > B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png > > ./configure > > The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no > "Harfbuzz" warning message. > > > I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A. I recognize the difference between your two sets of screenshots as being caused by different hinting styles used by the two font renderers. Those in A seem to use slight or no hinting. Those in B use strong hinting. On an X11/GNU/Linux desktop, hinting style can be configured in at least three ways. One is via the Xft.hintstyle resource; another is /etc/fonts/fonts.conf or one of the files included from it, typically one of /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-hinting-{full,medium,none,slight}.conf; and the third one is via the XSETTINGS protocol, provided by the desktop environment and configured somewhere in its control panel. For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting despite my configuration. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:43 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 18:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 17:49 ` Robert Pluim 1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: Robert Pluim, Emacs developers On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:02, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote: > For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and > would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting > despite my configuration. Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly hinted just fine. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:43 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-29 8:30 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 18:44 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: Robert Pluim, Emacs developers On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote: > Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and > Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly > hinted just fine. And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:43 ` Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-29 8:30 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 10:11 ` YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 8:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Colin Baxter, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu, Emacs developers >>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:43:11 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said: Yuri> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote: >> Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and >> Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly >> hinted just fine. Yuri> And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using Yuri> parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications. Looking through the Emacs code, it does look at eg Xft/Hintstyle, whether Cairo or libXft is in use, but then only applies those settings when using Xft, so I suspect Cairo is doing the appropriate setting of Hintstyle for us (but that probably means we'll ignore XSETTINGS). Yamamoto-san, in 0701634aa7 you undid your original changes to have the XSETTINGS apply when using Cairo. Is there a way to restore those? Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-29 8:30 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 10:11 ` YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu 2020-01-29 10:54 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu @ 2020-01-29 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Colin Baxter, Emacs developers, Yuri Khan On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:30:47 +0900, Robert Pluim wrote: > > >>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:43:11 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said: > > Yuri> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and > >> Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly > >> hinted just fine. > > Yuri> And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using > Yuri> parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications. > > Looking through the Emacs code, it does look at eg Xft/Hintstyle, > whether Cairo or libXft is in use, but then only applies those > settings when using Xft, so I suspect Cairo is doing the appropriate > setting of Hintstyle for us (but that probably means we'll ignore XSETTINGS). > > Yamamoto-san, in 0701634aa7 you undid your original changes to have > the XSETTINGS apply when using Cairo. Is there a way to restore those? Actually I'm really unfamiliar with hinting style and XSETTINGS stuff. I'd appreciate it if someone could take over. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-29 10:11 ` YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu @ 2020-01-29 10:54 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu; +Cc: Colin Baxter, Emacs developers, Yuri Khan >>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 19:11:16 +0900, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> said: YAMAMOTO> Actually I'm really unfamiliar with hinting style and XSETTINGS stuff. YAMAMOTO> I'd appreciate it if someone could take over. Iʼm having a go, but Iʼm having a hard time getting FontConfig to respect the settings I give it. Only 500 more fontconfig configuration files to read.... Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:43 ` Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 18:44 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Robert Pluim, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1051 bytes --] >>>>> Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:02, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote: >> For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and >> would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong >> hinting despite my configuration. > Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo > and Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders > slightly hinted just fine. On another machine with Harfbuzz, and using M-x describe-char on the first T in the scratch buffer: A. With Harfbuzz but without cairo using "./configure --without-cairo <RET>" xfthb:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-15-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x37) This gives me the "without-cairo.png". B. With Harfbuzz and cairo, using "./configure <RET>" ftcrhb:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-15-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x37) This gives me the "with-cairo.png". Best wishes, Colin. P.S. Sorry about my typos. [-- Attachment #2: without-cairo.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 99912 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: with-cairo.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 85380 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan @ 2020-01-28 17:49 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 20:33 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Colin Baxter, Emacs developers >>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:02:52 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said: Yuri> I recognize the difference between your two sets of screenshots as Yuri> being caused by different hinting styles used by the two font Yuri> renderers. Those in A seem to use slight or no hinting. Those in B use Yuri> strong hinting. Yuri> On an X11/GNU/Linux desktop, hinting style can be configured in at Yuri> least three ways. One is via the Xft.hintstyle resource; another is Yuri> /etc/fonts/fonts.conf or one of the files included from it, typically Yuri> one of /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-hinting-{full,medium,none,slight}.conf; Yuri> and the third one is via the XSETTINGS protocol, provided by the Yuri> desktop environment and configured somewhere in its control panel. Yuri> For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and Yuri> would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting Yuri> despite my configuration. If thatʼs what's going on, itʼs unintentional, and would need to be fixed. Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 17:49 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 20:33 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-29 11:21 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Emacs developers, Yuri Khan I can turn off hinting with <match target="font"> <edit name="hinting" mode="assign"> <bool>false</bool> </edit> <edit name="autohint" mode="assign"> <bool>false</bool> </edit> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> <const>hintnone</const> </edit> </match> in my ~/.fonts.conf. Thanks to https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2009/04/17/ubuntu-font-hinting-you-a-cautionary-tale/. :-) :-) Best wishes, Colin. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 20:33 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-29 11:21 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 14:07 ` Colin Baxter 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Colin Baxter; +Cc: Emacs developers, Yuri Khan >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:33:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: Colin> I can turn off hinting with Colin> <match target="font"> Colin> <edit name="hinting" mode="assign"> Colin> <bool>false</bool> Colin> </edit> Colin> <edit name="autohint" mode="assign"> Colin> <bool>false</bool> Colin> </edit> Colin> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> Colin> <const>hintnone</const> Colin> </edit> Colin> </match> Colin> in my ~/.fonts.conf. Thanks to Colin> https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2009/04/17/ubuntu-font-hinting-you-a-cautionary-tale/. Based on <https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cairo/cairo/issues/23>, it appears that Cairo has issues with respecting fontconfig hintstyle settings. Iʼm glad you found a combination that works. Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-29 11:21 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 14:07 ` Colin Baxter 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-29 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Emacs developers, Yuri Khan >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: > Based on <https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cairo/cairo/issues/23>, > it appears that Cairo has issues with respecting fontconfig > hintstyle settings. Iʼm glad you found a combination that works. > Robert Thank you for the information; it's useful to know. And thank you for your help and patience. Best Wishes, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 13:09 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 13:10 ` Colin Baxter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> "Colin" == Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes: >>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said: >>>> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is >>>> unmaintained and causes crashes. Colin> Ok, so be it. Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch Colin> out a fair number of users. We will see. >> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from >> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might >> have issues, and there should be not be too many of those. Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does Colin> seem that old. Colin> Best wishes, To me, Debian 8.11 does not seem that old Forgot the not! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 12:01 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter @ 2020-01-28 20:06 ` James Cloos 2020-01-29 8:45 ` Robert Pluim 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: James Cloos @ 2020-01-28 20:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Colin Baxter, emacs-devel >>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: RP> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from RP> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have RP> issues, and there should be not be too many of those. Are you certasin that the ~/.Xdefaults font syntax remains constant? Last I looked pango and hb did not grok things like: Emacs.Font: CMU Typewriter Text-11.4:dpi=133 and I do not know about: Emacs.Font: DejaVu Sans Mono:pixelsize=20 And xft in general also supports things like: :pixelsize=20:matrix=0.6875 0.1875 0 1 which better enables matching when using sets of fallback fonts. PanGo always avoided proper expresiveness and I doubt hb does any better. (And recall that I was one of the first to suggest having the equiv of the modern --with-cairo as emacs' default, only to be harshly shot down. Like usual, someone else has done it w/o that complaint. :) -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 20:06 ` James Cloos @ 2020-01-29 8:45 ` Robert Pluim 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 8:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: James Cloos; +Cc: Colin Baxter, emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:06:03 -0500, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> said: >>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes: RP> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from RP> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have RP> issues, and there should be not be too many of those. James> Are you certasin that the ~/.Xdefaults font syntax remains constant? James> Last I looked pango and hb did not grok things like: James> Emacs.Font: CMU Typewriter Text-11.4:dpi=133 James> and I do not know about: James> Emacs.Font: DejaVu Sans Mono:pixelsize=20 James> And xft in general also supports things like: James> :pixelsize=20:matrix=0.6875 0.1875 0 1 James> which better enables matching when using sets of fallback fonts. James> PanGo always avoided proper expresiveness and I doubt hb does any James> better. Emacs supports the FontConfig syntax for fonts, which allows all of those except 'matrix'. James> (And recall that I was one of the first to suggest having the equiv of James> the modern --with-cairo as emacs' default, only to be harshly shot James> down. Like usual, someone else has done it w/o that complaint. :) No *prior* complaint :-) Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 10:13 cairo now default? Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 10:22 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 14:08 ` Eric S Fraga 2020-01-28 14:58 ` Robert Pluim 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eric S Fraga @ 2020-01-28 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel This has just caught me out today. Can somebody recommend a font to use? I have been using Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason. Thank you. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.2.3 on Debian bullseye/sid ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 14:08 ` Eric S Fraga @ 2020-01-28 14:58 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 6:53 ` Fraga, Eric 2020-01-29 10:57 ` Eric S Fraga 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-28 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eric S Fraga; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:08:33 +0000, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> said: Eric> This has just caught me out today. Eric> Can somebody recommend a font to use? I have been using Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason. I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1 Would you have a minimal test case? Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 14:58 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-01-29 6:53 ` Fraga, Eric 2020-01-29 10:57 ` Eric S Fraga 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Fraga, Eric @ 2020-01-29 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org On Tuesday, 28 Jan 2020 at 15:58, Robert Pluim wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:08:33 +0000, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> said: > > Eric> This has just caught me out today. > Eric> Can somebody recommend a font to use? I have been using > Eric> Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with > Eric> HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason. > > I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1 I have: fonts-hack 3.003-3 libharfbuzz-dev:amd64 2.6.4-1 libcairo2-dev:amd64 1.16.0-4 using Debian's numbering. > Would you have a minimal test case? I'll try when I'm back in my office later today hopefully. Thank you. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.3.1 on Debian bullseye/sid ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-28 14:58 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 6:53 ` Fraga, Eric @ 2020-01-29 10:57 ` Eric S Fraga 2020-02-01 15:42 ` Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: " Madhu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eric S Fraga @ 2020-01-29 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On Tuesday, 28 Jan 2020 at 15:58, Robert Pluim wrote: > I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1 And now, somehow, I don't see this either. My commas are back. Apologies for the noise. :-( Thank you. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.2.3 on Debian bullseye/sid ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default? 2020-01-29 10:57 ` Eric S Fraga @ 2020-02-01 15:42 ` Madhu 2020-02-03 9:25 ` Robert Pluim 2020-02-04 6:14 ` Tassilo Horn 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Madhu @ 2020-02-01 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 307 bytes --] [sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other programs are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with cairo. harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11 [-- Attachment #2: faulty font rendering --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 120867 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default? 2020-02-01 15:42 ` Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: " Madhu @ 2020-02-03 9:25 ` Robert Pluim 2020-02-04 6:14 ` Tassilo Horn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2020-02-03 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Madhu; +Cc: emacs-devel >>>>> On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 21:12:19 +0530, Madhu <enometh@meer.net> said: Madhu> [sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the Madhu> SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a Madhu> freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other programs Madhu> are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with cairo. Madhu> harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11 Iʼm not seeing this with SourceCodeVariable-Roman.otf from <https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro/releases/tag/variable-fonts>. Does it persist with 'emacs -Q'? Robert ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default? 2020-02-01 15:42 ` Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: " Madhu 2020-02-03 9:25 ` Robert Pluim @ 2020-02-04 6:14 ` Tassilo Horn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Tassilo Horn @ 2020-02-04 6:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Madhu; +Cc: emacs-devel Madhu <enometh@meer.net> writes: > [sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the > SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a > freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other > programs are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with > cairo. harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11 I've had an issue with similar result (whitespace not displayed at all) at work with IntelliJ IDEA, see: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-230576 I haven't changed anything when that issue appeared although it is possible that some font related package was upgraded. (Currently I use gtk3 3.24.13, cairo 1.17.2, harfbuzz 2.6.4.) Nevertheless, the issue persisted restarts of IDEA. Only after I've deleted some IDEA-generated project file (which actually has nothing to do with fonts at all) and restarted, the issue disappeared. On IRC I've read someone speaking about a similar issue before. Long story short: it might be some issue with some underlying lib because the issue has been observed in multiple programs. Bye, Tassilo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-02-04 6:14 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 37+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-01-28 10:13 cairo now default? Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 10:22 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 11:21 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 11:30 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 11:49 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 12:01 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 13:01 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 13:09 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 14:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:09 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 15:27 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 15:14 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 16:24 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 16:37 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 16:47 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 16:55 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 17:02 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:32 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-28 17:43 ` Yuri Khan 2020-01-29 8:30 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 10:11 ` YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu 2020-01-29 10:54 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 18:44 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 17:49 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 20:33 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-29 11:21 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 14:07 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 13:10 ` Colin Baxter 2020-01-28 20:06 ` James Cloos 2020-01-29 8:45 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-28 14:08 ` Eric S Fraga 2020-01-28 14:58 ` Robert Pluim 2020-01-29 6:53 ` Fraga, Eric 2020-01-29 10:57 ` Eric S Fraga 2020-02-01 15:42 ` Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: " Madhu 2020-02-03 9:25 ` Robert Pluim 2020-02-04 6:14 ` Tassilo Horn
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