From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:09:56 -0700 Organization: New Artisans LLC Message-ID: References: <83bnc7tavr.fsf@gnu.org> <5618C92A.3040207@yandex.ru> <83a8rrt9ag.fsf@gnu.org> <5618D376.1080700@yandex.ru> <831td3t62e.fsf@gnu.org> <5618E51D.4070800@yandex.ru> <83twpzrp05.fsf@gnu.org> <5618ED93.8000001@yandex.ru> <83lhbbrnn7.fsf@gnu.org> <56191EBE.5050404@yandex.ru> <83612essaw.fsf@gnu.org> <877fmuix68.fsf@isaac.fritz.box> <8337xispn2.fsf@gnu.org> <56195055.6010409@gmx.at> <83r3l2r1nf.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2qufsop.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83mvvqr0xa.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444508036 14542 80.91.229.3 (10 Oct 2015 20:13:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:13:56 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 22:13:52 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zl0Wc-0001He-9A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:13:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46190 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zl0Wb-00080l-JM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:13:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zl0Tq-0003zZ-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:10:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zl0To-0008R4-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:10:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]:34138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zl0Tn-0008Qy-Io for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:10:55 -0400 Original-Received: by padhy16 with SMTP id hy16so117129089pad.1 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:date:organization:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=+gKhlNOSMZtYNnznKqJlTi8G5teQDwmD8tWvqS4Cjco=; b=HUTqU5w96uwt1/L5ExU3mqF3iBf87NqcPG5CZQzbhyMqS3s+zAxbXEixXZRn2wtQqA ZfSvxYRgyMpMBZ8aQY5n7pLte/5OoC/IOuVoKEx6Pa5rgumJA39uAE5/37V0xKWzBxh4 16gIcK2az8CWLQioeFzMLxS6PtL0VcyF5/EIOgQa3rLoTDZTFF0U106auJSsZqHFz+Xx XI/scyIKWXvpgpAz3p6ifV+rBKWF5Mq3EsvnsD2Xm55W5dp75OpQzBcvZH5ssrj5RtKj P5t2uWTnYb/ZrKl4wDB0kj6KaRp5ZntYk7nOwde8ylzBeucSiEu1w4G65y4/WHUA/hTq 8IEQ== X-Received: by 10.67.23.165 with SMTP id ib5mr23909189pad.26.1444507854891; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id im9sm9721123pbc.1.2015.10.10.13.10.52 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 270C0F278D1A; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83mvvqr0xa.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:14:25 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191173 Archived-At: >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> To reiterate: I think Emacs becomes more of an IDE when it provides >> >> the backbone of an IDE, and not when it looks like one. >> > >> > I don't think this will fly. In effect, you are telling Emacs users >> > they will have to code their own IDE by using the infrastructure >> > (a.k.a. "backbone") that we provide. >> >> I don't see that. He is telling Emacs developers they'll be able to >> rely on common infrastructure for creating an IDE catered to some >> particular language/system. > OK, but IMO we should aim for more than that. What John wrote sounded > like providing the infrastructure _is_ the goal. Apologies if I > misunderstood. Ah, I should have been clearer, Eli. What I wrote was addressed to Emacs developers. I think we have succeeded *towards* having an IDE when we have the right backbone in place. Next comes the package contributors, who will build out functionality on top of this backbone. If we do it right, it will mostly mean porting the backends of existing libraries that already do a superb job, like company and helm. Finally comes knitting it all together into a good user experience. This takes some art, but we have a few examples where this has been done right already. At the end of that road, we'd have an excellent IDE environment that a non-Emacs user could intuitively appreciate, the way so many do with Org or Spacemacs (each of which has won new Emacs users on its own, before those users understood what Emacs was really about). John