Emacs from CVS question

Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

I built Emacs 21.3.50.1 from CVS on OS X 10.1.5, using Andrew Choi's
instructions.  Actually, I built it twice, once for Carbon and once
for X11.  This was my first-ever compilation of an application, so I
am pretty much an utter newbie with this.  I've noticed a couple of
things that I wonder about:

1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
    build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
    splash screen, v. 21.2.something)

2.  I can't seem to get the Toolbar to display in the Carbon build,
    but it works fine in the X11 build.

3.  CVS provides Gnus 5.9 rather than 5.10.

4.  The Xaw3d toolbars are missing from my build of 21.3, but are
    present in the 21.2 build from fink.  My impression was that this
    should have been included in the build automagically, but wasn't.

5.  The Option key works as META in Carbon but not in X11 (I think
    that may be a problem with XDarwin or OroborOSX, since the Option
    key works as META in Terminal).

6.  The Carbon build is HUGE- 95 MB!  Can this be slimmed down?

7.  In /usr/local/bin both emacs and emacs-21.3.50 were installed and
    appear to be identical- same size, date and when launched both
    provided teh same version information.  Why was this- something I
    did with the installation?

Other than these niggling minor issues which are mainly curiosity,
everything seems to work fine.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> From: Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net>
> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:56:58 -0600
> 
> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
>     build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
>     splash screen, v. 21.2.something)

If you invoke Emacs with no arguments, you will see it.  If it still
doesn't appear, try "emacs -q".

> 3.  CVS provides Gnus 5.9 rather than 5.10.

The Emacs CVS has the version of Gnus that the Gnus maintainers commit
to the Emacs CVS.  If you think it's time for a newer Gnus to become
part of the Emacs CVS, please talk to the Gnus maintainers and ask
them to do that.

> 7.  In /usr/local/bin both emacs and emacs-21.3.50 were installed and
>     appear to be identical- same size, date and when launched both
>     provided teh same version information.  Why was this- something I
>     did with the installation?

These file `emacs' should be actually a hard link to the file
`emacs-21.3.50' (assuming OS X supports them--I have no idea if it
does), so that you are looking at 2 different names for the same file.

This is how Emacs is built on every other platform.  The intent is
that when you install a newer version, `emacs' gets linked to it,
while the older version is left behind, in case you want to downgrade
to it later.  In other words, it's a feature.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@elta.co.il> writes:

>> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
>> From: Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net>
>> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:56:58 -0600
>> 
>> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
>> build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
>> splash screen, v. 21.2.something)
>
> If you invoke Emacs with no arguments, you will see it.  If it still
> doesn't appear, try "emacs -q".

Not that it's actually an issue, of course, it's cosmetic.  However,
as this was my first-ever build I wasn't sure if this indicated
whether I did something incorrectly.  Neither "emacs" or "emacs -q"
results in the splash screen for Emacs (I do get the splash screen
for Gnus, but that was separately obtained from gnus.org and not
through CVS at Savannah).

>> 3.  CVS provides Gnus 5.9 rather than 5.10.
>
> The Emacs CVS has the version of Gnus that the Gnus maintainers
> commit to the Emacs CVS.  If you think it's time for a newer Gnus to
> become part of the Emacs CVS, please talk to the Gnus maintainers
> and ask them to do that.

Well, 5.10 does have some functionality that 5.9 didn't have, and
thus far seems stable and reliable.  Might be worth a nudge to the
Gnus team, to see if they think it's ready.  There may be issues of
which I am unaware.

>> 7.  In /usr/local/bin both emacs and emacs-21.3.50 were installed
>> and appear to be identical- same size, date and when launched both
>> provided teh same version information.  Why was this- something I
>> did with the installation?
>
> These file `emacs' should be actually a hard link to the file
> `emacs-21.3.50' (assuming OS X supports them--I have no idea if it
> does), so that you are looking at 2 different names for the same
> file.
>
> This is how Emacs is built on every other platform.  The intent is
> that when you install a newer version, `emacs' gets linked to it,
> while the older version is left behind, in case you want to
> downgrade to it later.  In other words, it's a feature.

Interesting, and makes sense.  Thank you!

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> From: Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net>
> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:54:43 -0600
> 
> Neither "emacs" or "emacs -q" results in the splash screen for Emacs

Then you've probably discovered a bug; please use the command
"M-x report-emacs-bug RET" to report it to a suitable forum.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Glenn Morris]

Tim McNamara wrote:

> I built Emacs 21.3.50.1 from CVS on OS X 10.1.5,
[...]
> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
>     build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
>     splash screen, v. 21.2.something)

By "splash screen", do you mean the fancy splash screen (the one with
the picture of a gnu, etc)? Recent CVS versions only show this if they
think the initial frame is big enough. Try starting Emacs with a
larger frame than usual (using --geometry), as well as with -q and
--no-site-file.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Glenn Morris <gmorris+news@ast.cam.ac.uk> writes:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>> I built Emacs 21.3.50.1 from CVS on OS X 10.1.5,
> [...]
>> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
>> build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
>> splash screen, v. 21.2.something)
>
> By "splash screen", do you mean the fancy splash screen (the one
> with the picture of a gnu, etc)? Recent CVS versions only show this
> if they think the initial frame is big enough. Try starting Emacs
> with a larger frame than usual (using --geometry), as well as with
> -q and --no-site-file.

Yes, that's what I mean.  I'll try setting it to a larger initial
frame before presuming there's a bug.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Piet van Oostrum]

>>>>> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> (TM) wrote:

TM> I built Emacs 21.3.50.1 from CVS on OS X 10.1.5, using Andrew Choi's
TM> instructions.  Actually, I built it twice, once for Carbon and once
TM> for X11.  This was my first-ever compilation of an application, so I
TM> am pretty much an utter newbie with this.  I've noticed a couple of
TM> things that I wonder about:

TM> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a different
TM>     build obtained through the Fink Project which does present the
TM>     splash screen, v. 21.2.something)

TM> 2.  I can't seem to get the Toolbar to display in the Carbon build,
TM>     but it works fine in the X11 build.

Carbon emacs has no graphics support AFAIK. That takes care of the second
point and probably also of the first.
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP]
Private email: P.van.Oostrum@hccnet.nl

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.nl> writes:

>>>>>> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> (TM) wrote:
>
> TM> I built Emacs 21.3.50.1 from CVS on OS X 10.1.5, using Andrew
> TM> Choi's instructions.  Actually, I built it twice, once for
> TM> Carbon and once for X11.  This was my first-ever compilation of
> TM> an application, so I am pretty much an utter newbie with this.
> TM> I've noticed a couple of things that I wonder about:
>
> TM> 1.  The Emacs splash screen seems to be missing (I have a
> TM> different build obtained through the Fink Project which does
> TM> present the splash screen, v. 21.2.something)
>
> TM> 2.  I can't seem to get the Toolbar to display in the Carbon
> TM> build, but it works fine in the X11 build.
>
> Carbon emacs has no graphics support AFAIK. That takes care of the
> second point and probably also of the first.

Ah.  I wondered about that as Gnus 5.10 launches with the old ASCII
"gnu" rather than the newer, fancier one I see when I launceEmacs
under X11.  However, in point 1 I was referring to the X11 version.
That may be the result of the initial frame being too small, I'll
have to set the geometry to open a larger frame.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Martin Stemplinger]

On Sam Nov 29 2003 at 16:56, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> 4.  The Xaw3d toolbars are missing from my build of 21.3, but are
>     present in the 21.2 build from fink.  My impression was that this
>     should have been included in the build automagically, but wasn't.
>
Did you include the option  --with-x-toolkit to configure (./configure
--help tells you all options that you can use)?
-- 
Remove NOSPAM to reply by mail

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Martin Stemplinger <mstemplingerNOSPAM@gmx.de> writes:

> On Sam Nov 29 2003 at 16:56, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> 4.  The Xaw3d toolbars are missing from my build of 21.3, but are
>> present in the 21.2 build from fink.  My impression was that this
>> should have been included in the build automagically, but wasn't.
>>
> Did you include the option --with-x-toolkit to configure
> (./configure --help tells you all options that you can use)?

I didn't explicitly invoke that, although configure indicated it would
build Emacs wth the "lucid" toolkit.  However, the Xaw3d libraries
might be installed in a non-standard location my fink and perhaps the
compiler didn't find them.  I'll have to hunt around some more.  The
directories where fink puts stuff are a separate directory tree in
/sw; /sw is in my $PATH but perhaps that didn't help the compiler.

This compiling stuff is an interesting adventure for a long-time Mac
user!  Unix users seem to be well-accustomed to this set of skills,
but it's alien territory for us Mac-heads.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Hugh Wolf]

On 2003-11-29, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> 4.  The Xaw3d toolbars are missing from my build of 21.3, but are
>     present in the 21.2 build from fink.  My impression was that this
>     should have been included in the build automagically, but wasn't.

If you look at the fink .info file for whatever 21.2 build you're
running can see what options were used to build it.  Look at the value
of ConfigureParameters.

For instance emacs21-xaw3d.info in the unstable tree has this:

ConfigureParams: --with-x --with-x-toolkit=lucid --without-gif \
 --infodir='${prefix}/share/info' --mandir='${prefix}/share/man'\
 --libexecdir='${prefix}/lib'

The only difference between the xaw3d info and the other x11 emacs
info is that the latter also includes --without-toolkit-scroll-bars.



NB: it's NOT a good idea to build software outside of fink that has
dependencies on fink-provided packages like xaw3d (not impossible but
not a good idea).  If you want to install xaw3d via fink, then you
should build your emacs 21.3 with fink.  Or, if you really think it's
a good idea to install into /usr/local (I don't), handle all the
non-standard dependencies that way as well, including xaw3d.  Don't
mix them.



> 5.  The Option key works as META in Carbon but not in X11 (I think
>     that may be a problem with XDarwin or OroborOSX, since the Option
>     key works as META in Terminal).

I haven't used XDarwin.app in a long time now, but this sounds like an
.Xmodmap thing.  With X11.app my ~/.Xmodmap looks like this:

clear mod1
keycode 66 = Meta_L 
keycode 63 = Mode_switch
add mod1 = Meta_L

This is with the Pro keyboard.  The result is that option/alt is my
meta key and command/apple is my alt key in X11.


> 6.  The Carbon build is HUGE- 95 MB!  Can this be slimmed down?

Mine is 15.6MB for emacs itself -- less than half the size of the X11
build (36.7MB).  Where are you seeing 95MB?

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Hugh Wolf <hwolf@deutsches.lieder.de> writes:

> On 2003-11-29, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> 4.  The Xaw3d toolbars are missing from my build of 21.3, but are
>> present in the 21.2 build from fink.  My impression was that this
>> should have been included in the build automagically, but wasn't.
>
> If you look at the fink .info file for whatever 21.2 build you're
> running can see what options were used to build it.  Look at the
> value of ConfigureParameters.

Thanks!  As I'm still learning, this stuff is almost over my head.

> NB: it's NOT a good idea to build software outside of fink that has
> dependencies on fink-provided packages like xaw3d (not impossible
> but not a good idea).  If you want to install xaw3d via fink, then
> you should build your emacs 21.3 with fink.  Or, if you really think
> it's a good idea to install into /usr/local (I don't), handle all
> the non-standard dependencies that way as well, including xaw3d.
> Don't mix them.

Not mixing fink-built and non-fink-built dependencies makes sense.
Thus far 21.3 doesn't seem to be available via fink (and in any event
the Carbon build would not be available via fink, hence doing that
myself).

What's the issue with installing into /usr/local?

>> 5.  The Option key works as META in Carbon but not in X11 (I think
>> that may be a problem with XDarwin or OroborOSX, since the Option
>> key works as META in Terminal).
>
> I haven't used XDarwin.app in a long time now, but this sounds like
> an .Xmodmap thing.  With X11.app my ~/.Xmodmap looks like this:

Huh.  I don't have an ~/.Xmodmap file... 

>> 6.  The Carbon build is HUGE- 95 MB!  Can this be slimmed down?
>
> Mine is 15.6MB for emacs itself -- less than half the size of the
> X11 build (36.7MB).  Where are you seeing 95MB?

Get Info on Emacs.app = 96.6 MB.  (BTW the INSTALL file that came with
the Emacs sources indicated the total build to be 77 MB, presumably
for a standard installation on Unix).

Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs = 9.2 MB
/usr/local/bin/emacs = 9.6 MB

Most of the size seems to be at:

Emacs.app/Contents/Resources = 86.8 MB
Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp = 55.5 MB
Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/leim = 13.8 MB
Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/info = 10.4 MB
Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/etc = 6.8 MB

To make the package self contained, I copied the lisp, site-lisp and
info files into Emacs.app as per Andrew Choi's Web site instructions.

I tried "gzip *.el" in Emacs.app/.../lisp to save space, but then
Emacs Carbon wouldn't launch- I found out that there are several
important .el files that don't have byte-compiled equivalents!  Live
and learn the hard way...  ;-)

Oddly enough, neither the Carbon version nor the X11 version I
compiled can find the info files, which are at the place that "make
install" put them (/usr/local/info for the X11 build; I also copied
them to Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/info for the Carbon build).

Thanks!

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Hugh Wolf]

On 2003-11-30, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Not mixing fink-built and non-fink-built dependencies makes sense.
> Thus far 21.3 doesn't seem to be available via fink 

Time to make your own .info file :) It's very easy in this case, since
you can copy one that's there already and modify it as needed.  Put it
in the local tree, so fink knows it's not part of its distribution.



> (and in any event
> the Carbon build would not be available via fink

Right, but this is completely standalone, it doesn't depend on
anything at all other than what comes with the osx developer tools --
not on fink and not on anything else you might happen to have in
/usr/local.




>> I haven't used XDarwin.app in a long time now, but this sounds like
>> an .Xmodmap thing.  With X11.app my ~/.Xmodmap looks like this:
>
> Huh.  I don't have an ~/.Xmodmap file... 

If you want option to be meta, you need one.  The standard osx X11 key
mapping makes command/apple act as meta and option/alt act as alt.



>> Mine is 15.6MB for emacs itself -- less than half the size of the
>> X11 build (36.7MB).  Where are you seeing 95MB?
>
> Get Info on Emacs.app = 96.6 MB. 

Right, ok, but that's with all the lisp and info files etc.  You'll
see exactly the same thing with the X11 build, except those parts will
be under /usr/local.


> Oddly enough, neither the Carbon version nor the X11 version I
> compiled can find the info files

This works ok for me.




> which are at the place that "make
> install" put them 

If you leave them wherever the install step puts them, it should work.
With the carbon emacs you should also be able to copy them into the
application bundle (as you've apparently done).  I don't do this
myself, but I did try it once, some time ago, and it seemed to work
fine.

What symptom are you seeing -- 'meta-x info' shows nothing?

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Hugh Wolf <hwolf@deutsches.lieder.de> writes:

> On 2003-11-30, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> Not mixing fink-built and non-fink-built dependencies makes sense.
>> Thus far 21.3 doesn't seem to be available via fink
>
> Time to make your own .info file :) It's very easy in this case,
> since you can copy one that's there already and modify it as needed.
> Put it in the local tree, so fink knows it's not part of its
> distribution.
>
>> (and in any event the Carbon build would not be available via fink
>
> Right, but this is completely standalone, it doesn't depend on
> anything at all other than what comes with the osx developer tools
> -- not on fink and not on anything else you might happen to have in
> /usr/local.

OK, that was over my head.  ;-)

>>> I haven't used XDarwin.app in a long time now, but this sounds
>>> like an .Xmodmap thing.  With X11.app my ~/.Xmodmap looks like
>>> this:
>>
>> Huh.  I don't have an ~/.Xmodmap file... 
>
> If you want option to be meta, you need one.  The standard osx X11
> key mapping makes command/apple act as meta and option/alt act as
> alt.

Even if my .emacs contains (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)?  Now,
in Terminal Option = Meta as there's a check box in Preferences for
this, but it doesn't carry over to X11 obviously.  And in the Carbon
version Option = Meta, so for the sake of consistency it'd be nice to
have the same functionality in the X11 version.  I'll look into using
an .Xmodmap file to set this.

>>> Mine is 15.6MB for emacs itself -- less than half the size of the
>>> X11 build (36.7MB).  Where are you seeing 95MB?
>>
>> Get Info on Emacs.app = 96.6 MB. 
>
> Right, ok, but that's with all the lisp and info files etc.  You'll
> see exactly the same thing with the X11 build, except those parts
> will be under /usr/local.
>
>> Oddly enough, neither the Carbon version nor the X11 version I
>> compiled can find the info files
>
> This works ok for me.

Which is what makes me wonder if I miscued the build process in some
way, missed a library that I'm supposed to have, etc..  I haven't
heard anything about this being a problem for other people building
from the CVS snapshot.

>> which are at the place that "make install" put them
>
> If you leave them wherever the install step puts them, it should
> work.  With the carbon emacs you should also be able to copy them
> into the application bundle (as you've apparently done).  I don't do
> this myself, but I did try it once, some time ago, and it seemed to
> work fine.

I didn't do anything with where anything was installed.  My
interaction with the compiling process amounted to:

(Using Andrew Choi's script for obtaining Emacs from CVS at Savannah;
then gunzipping/untar'ing the file, then cd'ing to the emacs source
directory where I invoked:)

./configure --with-carbon --without-x
make bootstrap
sudo make install

I invoked 'make distclean' after getting a working version for Carbon,
and then I decided to build a copy for X11 use:

./configure --with-x --without-carbon
make bootstrap
make install

> What symptom are you seeing -- 'meta-x info' shows nothing?

'M-x info' produces the Gnus info tree as the top level, but no other
info.  Using the menu bar Help item produces either nothing (e.g.,
selecting "About Emacs" with the mouse results in "menu-bar help-menu
about" in the minibuffer but no help screen; selecting "Read the Emacs
manual" results in "info file emacs does not exist" in the minibuffer
and a blank buffer frame named "info."

It's kind of interesting to me that *both* builds have the same
behavior in this regard.  Is there some way to check where Emacs
*thinks* the info files are?  Is it looking somewhere other than
/usr/local/info?

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Hugh Wolf]

On 2003-12-01, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> If you want option to be meta, you need one.  The standard osx X11
>> key mapping makes command/apple act as meta and option/alt act as
>> alt.
>
> Even if my .emacs contains (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)?  

Correct.  That option is only for the carbon build.  The X11 build
isn't mac-specific in this way.  It will use whatever X11 has mapped
to the logical 'meta' key,


> it'd be nice to
> have the same [meta key mapping] in the X11 version.

I agree completely, and I have my environment configured to support
this.  You'll have it too, once you get the xmodmap thing working.  



I don't think can help with the info problem; sorry.  It's always
'just worked' for me.  But there are many info experts here :) Otoh
they probably stopped reading this thread long ago, or never started
in the first place.  You might want to ask that specific question
again, in a separate thread with a different Subject: header.

Re: Emacs from CVS question

[Tim McNamara]

Hugh Wolf <hwolf@deutsches.lieder.de> writes:

> On 2003-12-01, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>>> If you want option to be meta, you need one.  The standard osx X11
>>> key mapping makes command/apple act as meta and option/alt act as
>>> alt.
>>
>> Even if my .emacs contains (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)?
>
> Correct.  That option is only for the carbon build.  The X11 build
> isn't mac-specific in this way.  It will use whatever X11 has mapped
> to the logical 'meta' key,

Ah.  I assumed (living in a Mac-centric universe as I have for 17
years) that this applied to all Emacsen running on a Mac, whether
Carbon or X11.  Thanks for clearing that up.

>> it'd be nice to have the same [meta key mapping] in the X11
>> version.
>
> I agree completely, and I have my environment configured to support
> this.  You'll have it too, once you get the xmodmap thing working.

I'll work on that!

> I don't think can help with the info problem; sorry.  It's always
> 'just worked' for me.  But there are many info experts here :) Otoh
> they probably stopped reading this thread long ago, or never started
> in the first place.  You might want to ask that specific question
> again, in a separate thread with a different Subject: header.

Well, thanks very much, the rest was *very* helpful.