From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 11:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462387725 12761 80.91.229.3 (4 May 2016 18:48:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:48:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 04 20:48:34 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1qa-00049Y-Tn for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 20:48:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49711 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1qX-0003gT-8e for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:48:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48187) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1qM-0003Rr-Ul for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:48:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1qA-0000Lj-FK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:48:13 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:54095) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1q9-0000K8-9p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:48:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1q5-0007ob-UH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:48:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:48:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23425 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23425-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23425.146238763729981 (code B ref 23425); Wed, 04 May 2016 18:48:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:47:17 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38199 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pN-0007nU-I5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi0-f51.google.com ([209.85.218.51]:33039) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pH-0007ge-QY for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi0-f51.google.com with SMTP id v145so76259873oie.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=frmm1sBRWFsM78Rz2DiLAmwxmnisFGsByAwbYz+3rpQ=; b=BQRoQd5HIZesa5YjEuqIQ635A2wyCLlVz1pn0EgIBkerlmJsQxul4nJeJBc5vGZBxW T3JA1Snp37/jUIZRALlc/vhSS+FU9dR2uwnsFfGFLaFbpisWxSHna/JjQ4+gf9SE6VkR xFoGls9O09q4Ndr3+pCZHcQ+bNIA7XxPEFVYcj/9UiBSWhXk0K8ZS5l5VFSqDiccthK7 DTOcyfN2J9A2zuHVxxKM6RWMzsI3XO8aj2/8IExomdzRXJ4tJ6RoEl++fJW78pu/r3aV AzmSlqAfQdAXEVy+cWfk5RzAAaxuWvcB4Vki5TLELMpZZVcf7V+kxWlu3tv53w2a9BT1 CdgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=frmm1sBRWFsM78Rz2DiLAmwxmnisFGsByAwbYz+3rpQ=; b=F8i+GQFQkWBa5276yG1BS8BJsj5EZzsOhIUhooNmhyNb2Ff98TW0Ft6T+ABGTfejKo qItp9Z0i3U+idpYlILamNIlVbkkh9B38N2/XFQ9T7hx73oCNzY8pZClkipFqDMsI8lF2 Sbi4ZskLCVoWBZcfPOd0sEM3DSPEPHTx4M6/obtfgA7Ay5GpxopVtnBVgT00AZuyQGQm /IzjWXq+IF7YdMRkyj1fQCRH0sGGarVPOgJQ0+j+WPCgWCEOg2moBVAPxyzq3kR8Etia UNHvLLHb4QhhPk2GPSC/ctu7UrjJp44bJXbODzLNJkK7/W3pLo5LbiyAYHSARqNA72Df ZozA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXZUEdtXqU92p8vpiYum3lo9y5NMuE5nT28s4+7h4zJu65hqMuP9FMLOvFNnOfm8g== X-Received: by 10.157.10.78 with SMTP id 72mr5393713otg.86.1462387626361; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 50sm1802440ote.39.2016.05.04.11.47.03 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A27131496BBB7; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:47:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117787 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Alan Mackenzie writes: > There won't be lots of complaints about this. There will be a few people = who > notice, and some of them will utterly hate it, just as I do. Some will ha= ve > their Lisp rendered unworkable, just as happened to me. There are thousan= ds > of options in Emacs, and most users care about only a small subset (altho= ugh > the subset is different for each user). You could remove any option, no > matter how "important", and you'd get only a small number of complaints. > This doesn't seem to me like the way to judge things. Hi guys, I appreciate the passion on this issue; I had a feeling this would come up, and I think the reaction is going to be far more widespread than some expec= t. As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new curly quotes logic. After the reactions I've read here, I'm convinced again that a customization option needs to exist in 25.1, so we can easily recomm= end it to people who react as Alan has done. I realize it's harder to take away a defcustom than to promote a defvar, but this is too much of a hot issue to wait an entire release for sufficient bug reports to come in before we act. If we think this reaction is going to be isolated to just a few developers here, I fear we've underestimated the glo= bal capacity for bike-shedding: and nothing says bike-shedding better than a purely aesthetic concern as minor as ' vs. =E2=80=99. In fact, I would like to rip all the curly-quote redisplay logic out of Ema= cs, for several reasons: 1. It achieves nothing technically. Emacs is not a better editor because = of it in any objective way; it is purely an aesthetic change, desired only by those who agree with its aesthetics. 2. It has caused numerous bugs already. 3. It has provoked heated debate many times already. The amount of time lost on emacs-devel to this one issue is an absolute shame. 4. It changes Emacs according to the preferences of specific people, with= out giving others -- in the very spirit of Emacs! -- an option to choose one's desired behavior in the standard fashion. At this point, I cannot undo this feature, since that would destabilize 25.= 1. However, we must have an option to conveniently disable it before the relea= se happens. Of that I am now certain. Would someone be willing to craft a patc= h, please? Lastly, to play devil's advocate: I also recognize, after having written th= is, that I'm something of an "old fogey" in Emacs terms, with a special place f= or ASCII in my heart. It's quite possible that the new-and-coming generation is very fond of Unicode, and they will all love this feature, since it gives Emacs a more modern "feel". For their sake, I'm prepared to wait for the world's judgment before deciding that this feature is entirely terrible. But for the sake of my fellow dinosaurs, I need a way to turn it off! Pleas= e! They are like tiny knives, stabbing at my mind with their Unicode edges; or= a plague of typeset locusts, foretelling the soon-to-come Apostroclypse. I hope we can resolve this discussion with less ire, and more focus on what will make 25.1 a better release. No one is ill-intended here. We just have very different opinions on what looks nice. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXKkOiAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwwY4L/Avw7z86ssKVHS6HAaUfq7+b E0A7TxwUTX8OUQfRTDQ0lkfRanVpeOw3uevlWCdj3jEcxaupBtApYrnhiBDjT/8M v5WkdfN9Mk7iWP5DLva7zvg0/LHtQady6tbDMA8vjONq9bLWw9Z47+bRFGH2f3Vg Ov9FsJ7LaAuYhNQJSax/mmrozrOw8vP9wWKZa+Zn0yEXFY1C94P+oATv1Qbq8MgD 2mi63ksFDCB/tXUdZ8bn9HQ1HdksrVgGN0xwldtfE01wtLXtCxWHhdZLnv2EYhG6 urOclWpTxwFkA2zeyJi8PDuAOk9mFwD76w6AKYppzKc6F3gsqaN8AJ3p/idZNCRJ QXmnKkwkcvccbtG1xNUxAnW0CavJhFnpoKVobLqCHvHvb8OwKyNwqRpckrGoOILo OngVijb+Ea1TtEnc3OTJGp2SZQ+rab00Coh998y84dgZIn1RWWWAEX/vM0460Rxr IC8wBXA3JeToFs/pMNz9Q62eJsQPkZ4A9V6Dg4IDQQ== =uAiK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--