From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Filipp Gunbin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 17:10:12 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8736uvmn44.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87y3chqre4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87va7j65s6.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87worxu66s.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536329305 6596 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 14:08:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 14:08:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (darwin) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 16:08:21 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHQp-0001Xn-PH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:08:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38861 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHSv-0001MT-LW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:10:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55317) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHSp-0001Lm-5D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:10:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHSj-0003fM-JF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:10:23 -0400 Original-Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.25]:48749) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHSj-0003bQ-6n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:10:17 -0400 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321EE2C7; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:10:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=4UIn24SIy59e6iUlgyVT6V15cOdtwCk9/FnPQVvlLz0=; b=V4lIj54Q nqVvB3JdMyZZcd5+zZ2+l0ZlMrXo9JeflJZLmXGdLu/dtytNS3bXkGp9isE1N7HB x1M326Q2RRG6NH3QC4O0cMZfNgLMoaI0LOhnvk74iVUP9kDpiRyjC2SqZmIS7fgV FNilEdjmxnw+y0nC254odUTdY49IgpKCojRzfPtSNsJc1HIiqdHq4l9kcShh3CfW +SDDY74jJpRr1Gq3V60bIL9x767QIcFgFPLn/cYf5pQOG69BVM9TJfDJfIUyJD/e dyCv3CNx955inE1HSdI4QGIn5+8ztVxGO+zAYSy0qlAaoyzE1j0nbTEBs5AQsO/x ferVNsEA350WnA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=4UIn24SIy59e6iUlgyVT6V15cOdtw Ck9/FnPQVvlLz0=; b=RBXTpKK991pX4+4Eb821G7obD17rU5avfLq5YN9/fx8vr mjcyalxskJ/LJJRaEwRtVcJWYUEj/N79oBahcjHUVzIP3YVDhcRqrzAQvVmQFh8t 3QG0o1WXHZJG/Cxpni/w9Fxi66BLJjZm0RQuHNzlgjUc1vwq5WgV6OEzh1KbRQUc a1exHBJ/LjpnvjPqu+h4FFxWGpFLGXglteh3Y5/bSQPHOUtaIJeWhdwRw+QuEtzI JVgBjxUoFQf1RAjhGg6xjcGH+AU1teY8D2DFQleXJbQ3R38a35rfkqalvS+pg7JB sedt4t4jFWfV/YGJ+8Eg07XGY6RscqKc4sq3IScCw== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Original-Received: from fgunbin.playteam.ru (unknown [94.25.218.10]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CD845E4509; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:10:13 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87worxu66s.fsf@toy.adminart.net> (hw@adminart.net's message of "Fri, 07 Sep 2018 09:18:03 +0200") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229401 Archived-At: On 07/09/2018 09:18 +0200, hw wrote: > Filipp Gunbin writes: > > I've never used a Russian one. That might make a nice collectors item > :) Believe me, there's really nothing special about it. We usually switch between English and Cyrillic layout. All Cyrillic letters are put on the keyboard directly, with no AltGr or anything like that. If you enable "russian-computer" input method in Emacs, you'll get the same as we have on Russian keyboards. >> You should have 2 Ctrl's and 2 Alt's (one of which could be AltGr) on a >> German keyboard, so you should be in same situations as other users. > > AltGr is not an Alt key. There is only *one* Alt key on German > keyboards, and it's on the left side. > > They also have AltGr, and that is an entirely different modifier: > > > keycode 64 = Alt_L Meta_L Alt_L Meta_L > keycode 92 = ISO_Level3_Shift NoSymbol ISO_Level3_Shift > > > These two keys do entirely different things. A German keyboard is not > usable for German when you turn AlGr into Alt. An US keyboard is not > usable for German because it is missing some important keys. > > IIRC, Alt is Mod4 and AltGr is Mod5. Since they invented the additional > useless keys, these keys have all become so small that the useless ones > get in the way and it's difficult to hit what you want. That's the only > disadvantage of my current keyboard, otherwise it's even better than a > Model M. If it wasn't for that, I'd be using one of those. Yes, I see from the article that you have that additional (third) level of alteration, besides normal keys and shifted keys. I see three German input methods in Emacs (`C-h I g e r TAB TAB'): german, german-prefix, german-postfix. Are they not enought for a typical usage? If not, then what do other German users here use? As for Alt's, at least you have one normal Alt. I have a similar problem on Macbook, where we have two Command keys, and only one Ctrl. I swapped them on OS level. I also swapped resulting Ctrl with Alt, so I have this: COMMAND CTRL ALT SPACE ALT CTRL without any fancy Emacs settings. Not all users actually use right Alt and Ctrl, but I do, so it's important for me to have symmetric keys to the right of spacebar. Filipp