Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Lennart Borgman]

In "(emacs) Symbol Completion" (31.8):

       The character `M-<TAB>' runs a command to complete the partial
    symbol before point against the set of meaningful symbol names.  This
    command inserts at point any additional characters that it can
    determine from the partial name.  (If your window manager defines
    `M-<TAB>' to switch windows, you can type `<ESC> <TAB>' or `C-M-i'.)

The window manager of course does not use M-<TAB>. It uses Alt-<TAB>. 
Meta is Emacs specific and could be on another keyboard key than Alt.

I think this should be corrected to avoid confusion.

Re: Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Richard Stallman]

	determine from the partial name.  (If your window manager defines
	`M-<TAB>' to switch windows, you can type `<ESC> <TAB>' or `C-M-i'.)

    The window manager of course does not use M-<TAB>. It uses Alt-<TAB>. 
    Meta is Emacs specific and could be on another keyboard key than Alt.

    I think this should be corrected to avoid confusion.

I am not sure the existing text is wrong, but if you suggest a change,
I will think about it.

Re: Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Sascha Wilde]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:

> In "(emacs) Symbol Completion" (31.8):
>
>       The character `M-<TAB>' runs a command to complete the partial
>    symbol before point against the set of meaningful symbol names.  This
>    command inserts at point any additional characters that it can
>    determine from the partial name.  (If your window manager defines
>    `M-<TAB>' to switch windows, you can type `<ESC> <TAB>' or `C-M-i'.)
>
> The window manager of course does not use M-<TAB>. It uses
> Alt-<TAB>.

Things are even more complicated: many window managers I know don't
think in Terms of Alt or Meta, but use Mod1 true Mod5 as modifier
(sic!) keys.  The modifiers can be assigned to virtually any key (even
more than one) under X11.  Mod1 is set to Alt_L on most default X11
installations (at least on common x86 hardware).  Many window managers
use Mod1 as default modifier, so they actually use Alt in many cases,
buts that kind of a coincidence, too.

> Meta is Emacs specific and could be on another keyboard key than
> Alt.

Ack, I wouldn't say Meta is "Emacs specific" though.

> I think this should be corrected to avoid confusion.

I think the actual technical facts (window manager might use Mod1
which might be Alt per default, which might be used as Meta by Emacs)
are a bit confusing.  I'm not sure if telling all this to the user is
less confusing than the current text.

cheers
sascha
-- 
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-.+++++++++++.+++++.>+++++++[<-------->-]<-.>++++++[<+++++++>-]<+.--.+++..----
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----->-]<-.>+++++[<+++++++>-]<.--.>+++[<++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<--------->-]<--.

Re: Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Jason Rumney]

Sascha Wilde wrote:
> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
>   
>> In "(emacs) Symbol Completion" (31.8):
>>
>>       The character `M-<TAB>' ... (If your window manager defines
>>    `M-<TAB>' to ...
>> The window manager of course does not use M-<TAB>. It uses
>> Alt-<TAB>.
>>     
> Things are even more complicated

It isn't really complicated at all. We are talking about a conflict of 
window manager key assignments with Emacs' assignments, and we are 
talking about it in relation to how it affects Emacs. So it makes sense 
to talk about it in terms of what Emacs calls its keybindings. M-<TAB> 
is one key assignment we have singled out as commonly affected.

Re: Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Sascha Wilde]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> wrote:

> Sascha Wilde wrote:
>> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
>>   
>>> In "(emacs) Symbol Completion" (31.8):
>>>
>>>       The character `M-<TAB>' ... (If your window manager defines
>>>    `M-<TAB>' to ...
>>> The window manager of course does not use M-<TAB>. It uses
>>> Alt-<TAB>.
>>>     
>> Things are even more complicated
>
> It isn't really complicated at all. We are talking about a conflict of
> window manager key assignments with Emacs' assignments, and we are
> talking about it in relation to how it affects Emacs. So it makes
> sense to talk about it in terms of what Emacs calls its
> keybindings. M-<TAB> is one key assignment we have singled out as
> commonly affected.

I agree!  So why do you want to differentiate between Meta and Alt
while the only relevant case is when they are the same key?  (And
Emacs calls the key Meta).

cheers
sascha
-- 
Sascha Wilde
"Gimme about 10 seconds to think for a minute..."

Re: Meta and Alt confusion in the manual

[Sascha Wilde]

Sascha Wilde <wilde@sha-bang.de> wrote:

> Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> wrote:
[...]
>> It isn't really complicated at all. We are talking about a conflict of
>> window manager key assignments with Emacs' assignments, and we are
>> talking about it in relation to how it affects Emacs. So it makes
>> sense to talk about it in terms of what Emacs calls its
>> keybindings. M-<TAB> is one key assignment we have singled out as
>> commonly affected.
>
> I agree!  So why do you want to differentiate between Meta and Alt
                      ^^^

I just realized that I mixed up you and Lennart, sorry!  Forget about
the second sentence -- or replace "do you" with "should one"...  ;-)

cheers
sascha
-- 
Sascha Wilde
Hauptfunktion einer GUI ist es IMHO, die dadurch verlorene Zeit durch
einen höheren Spaß-Faktor zu kompensieren. Essentiell ein
Computerspiel.  --  Rainer Weikusat in d.c.o.u.d