From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Robert Pluim Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Implicit assumptions in the latest discussions Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:32:08 +0200 Message-ID: References: <1bc3251a-7b36-f151-7fc6-9ecf2639bb9f@grinta.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37143"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Daniele Nicolodi Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 17 17:38:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvz3-0009Xk-E3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:38:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43662 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvz2-0002e5-CT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:38:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35526) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvtX-0005ba-9E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:32:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x443.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::443]:33140) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvtR-0007Cu-Jf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:32:22 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x443.google.com with SMTP id m6so2579105wrn.0 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 08:32:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FBGG8AU5TJDO5yMT8bPghe3rWHpp7dax/DkNlQNC4fs=; b=e+aG8pJONy5rMjPpY/ck3PJYch4rCQbTHTwliZnfSewB0NmjepbB60pHcxiRNxxO6M Vo3MahMdwOZi1eZUqcOFFUz96WOJ5YsFnaGx1fwNe1XrYm1xUVv6yTOwkJolgyEg2eGQ eYc6yF0xbI0DIgGQqxMbz9E+WHlE2VEQWofLOVjIgEt9YrnxWSTMtNuWqshVM7pfdpRW o83IV4L1ber2I1LoWUqhCl3trwU/2Q+elynGTcjiTL8X7Xof+EWyztwVMOsLc8Zb4g5P OpZebKxDSR2in6/oCNqPNriGTfc/R0kusIysbYc+kwYuHmLh1AYpoBqrJrKf03W0l5de qqsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FBGG8AU5TJDO5yMT8bPghe3rWHpp7dax/DkNlQNC4fs=; b=GFMUvge5CJlPXy77uS6q9aPyRMkm21Mv9TbUNYyP9mC8iGvYRRdFKMZCWPTNviHxbm lfQpNBGQdWnYTZF/zdgxQZy/vIyKFj7d05yjBITP+TqY9B1tPN38izX351/v2nGCrb4p 6kxjPKWiVhODxm7snw3CMLt3PtnMErsrKiTiAlNf6PpxE8Q+D+FFYO0eOYIGSr6Df3p5 zhHW7EYz6FUaYUueQ+l3Az+CwYV4uKC8M3FZSJ7bkAKzVwyyWp0Nf0VFQtnL459mdphE YxOcuglBt/mfX6lzjKzPP2lIjSLiXaBTjcH73uZkXjCR7mogWrya0k0PGjNy2j9/lzGB 0QfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jpaESroHWEcJGUyIdACjD3Av0vC4BdgBec4w9+gADumRig0q8 nnQHH4MicXk4JUC4euxtJgRTyilsZdE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1Rjx3XcMYFputH1dOKNOsNY+5n0J3efuu3//XdJFWnQwqZpOM4YETw6BtZRwzFZE/LDbCVw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6049:: with SMTP id j9mr28852681wrt.295.1600356730099; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 08:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from rpluim-mac ([2a01:e34:ecfc:a860:99bb:88d4:2cf6:2ab9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 97sm38643692wrm.15.2020.09.17.08.32.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 17 Sep 2020 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes In-Reply-To: (Daniele Nicolodi's message of "Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:45:49 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::443; envelope-from=rpluim@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x443.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256014 Archived-At: >>>>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:45:49 +0200, Daniele Nicolodi said: Daniele> On 17/09/2020 16:01, Robert Pluim wrote: >> You=CA=BCre falling into the "the 'modern' gitlab/github etc dev pra= ctices >> are better" fallacy here. They=CA=BCre more *familiar* to certain pe= ople, >> but I don=CA=BCt really like them, because too much of the interacti= on is >> done with a browser (and I=CA=BCm sure I=CA=BCm not alone). See disc= ussions on >> this list about moving to such workflows whilst ensuring that email >> can still be used. Daniele> I don't know where you got the impression that I am advocating= for Emacs Daniele> to be developed using Gitlab or Github. Advances in software c= arpentry Daniele> (a buzzword that nicely encompasses what I am talking about he= re) best Daniele> practices in the last 20 years expand to things completely unr= elated to Daniele> the use of Gitlab or Github. Unfortunately, hacking on Emacs s= till Daniele> requires obliging to outdated conventions that only stand in t= he way of Daniele> contributors. I apologise if I misrepresented your position. It=CA=BCs just that normally when people come here and complain about Emacs' 'non-modern' development workflow, they mean 'use Gitlab/Github etc'. I=CA=BCd be interested to know what outdated conventions you mean. >> I think "simplified" is not the goal here, but "more familiar". Unli= ke >> development practices, I see no issue here with offering that kind of >> experience by default, since I can turn it off easily. The >> "graduation" problem exists, but that=CA=BCs easily solved with >> documentation :-) Daniele> I think that this "more familiar" environment is something tha= t no one Daniele> has been asking for. Actually, the success of Emacs distributi= ons like Daniele> Spacemacs seem to suggest that there is a large population of = users that Daniele> actually prefer a "less familiar" (when compared to "mainstrea= m" editing Daniele> environments) interaction with their editor. Nobody asks for it because the people that want it have already moved to a different editor. People who stay acquire the ability to mold Emacs to their wishes. >> There=CA=BCs an effort underway already to port emacs to 'pure' gtk,= which >> allows running directly on Wayland. See eg >> . Daniele> I know, and the effort has been undergoing for years now. What= I am Daniele> saying is that this effort should be probably prioritized and = effort Daniele> should be put into removing barriers for it to land in Emacs a= s soon as Daniele> possible. I know of no barriers to it landing, apart from the usual ones about completeness, documentation and testing. Daniele> While the use of a specific graphical toolkit may seems a tech= nical Daniele> issue far from the current discussions, I would like to point = out that Daniele> also this is mostly a "social" issue: removing support for oth= er Daniele> toolkits will affect those that for one reason or another pref= er to use Daniele> Motif Emacs. >>=20 >> There are people who are very attached to using the Lucid toolkit, a= nd >> they have valid reasons. Once the 'pure' gtk is in, there=CA=BCs no = reason >> to remove Lucid support, but there'd also be no reason to enhance it. Daniele> The reason to remove support for obsolete toolkits is that, as= long as Daniele> they need to be supported, Emacs cannot grow any functionality= that Daniele> cannot be implemented with them, new functionalities must be c= oded Daniele> against an abstract API that must be grown to encompass them a= nd Daniele> implemented N times. If substantial effort should be spent to Daniele> future-proof Emads, wouldn't it better to work with the mainta= iners of a Daniele> toolkit of choice to straighten the kinks that make some peopl= e prefer Daniele> to still use ancient toolkits? You've not been following the decades long discussion on GTK and the closing of displays, I see: the response of the GTK devs to that was at best rude, and definitely not helpful. Robert