From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:54:29 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> <838u1uuuau.fsf@gnu.org> <878u1um2xl.fsf@thinkpad.rath.org> Reply-To: John Wiegley NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457456106 12803 80.91.229.3 (8 Mar 2016 16:55:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 16:55:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 08 17:54:56 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adKuI-00009A-B7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:54:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35928 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKuH-00078z-S7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:54:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55735) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKu9-00078d-RI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:54:45 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKu5-0000tP-SK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:54:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]:34082) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKu5-0000t9-Gm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:54:37 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id fe3so556780pab.1 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:54:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=fnTwLrmvMXMIxQS1obZyCuTTtFlHqgItDzbCLJhl/og=; b=ev90+KSWiJNy0BMEtY0B6MMxMPZDEOFZqul2RSlkTQgv8y461n2uvuuiLIJxRpA61l WJ92vRjz/UzO857d4DP7kU8OWdI3jmtRYgFM6bDIaACg970uBprDsRyK1UlGZyeMtch3 P8Qj1C5gd7WpR7OkJTZFCcz14ywc1/iGzTizEm5jBTLCjWJZ9HEBfArbxfdSr8iqzH4d x0ChwyWmErKxfAEztmtzjohD451IfiOpVDrNhCOQsVvGEyQXtWzK9AEGOtL5tQqGugD4 sJpy+G1wHxi8xMVvZSXTq13PxE0RLL2Ro1y2aJdNiKddICXbIMSEVwkpTHbX7iuw0p05 sDmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=fnTwLrmvMXMIxQS1obZyCuTTtFlHqgItDzbCLJhl/og=; b=i32wsAsUDEEnwD2rIn1HPmWHaEOBweci3quXzlvo6q7tML3rKHowy+oAzHMsDXw4Sx f8Cw1IiF83VDDQ88MMXTzBRIkirz/ZAbSYjb9sWvgjKtW3A9Ls6veTBsyGWFaT2eC19Y nIwD8RVOwoFuD/4RJvo0csFP92Syfc704H0zGJtc6fuAFtx9ZdjfZvf/8w74u6dfrJfa 3kip/XWfa1GDlzQ3gvhuNVtyhw8O4lyceVOUX4EYyrHMNdQII903xIS8gNft1vaHQO/E TcymSjCiWE72NTNGZ0dVrqOZKH39CfKY1WzudpykjKPWGII9UiBlfprgjDplAHeAL9J4 RbLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIqV823kKSh1+3KrVGZEfOHsKUTrGsL6fEWk8k50N8h/ooUc1jhYUwoQMm5pWcN2w== X-Received: by 10.66.55.73 with SMTP id q9mr43300947pap.50.1457456076541; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:54:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm6174352pfp.96.2016.03.08.08.54.34 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:54:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6CD111358B0D7; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 08:54:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2016 22:30:04 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.92 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201177 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > And I think this is essential input. We are alienating contributors by > insisting on our weird (ok, "unusual") format of the meta data of the > patches. > > The ChangeLog is useful for some of us. But I would contend that its > usefulness doesn't trump all the contributors we have discouraged by > insisting on our quite singular submission format. Thank you, Lars, you have pretty much summed up my own concerns. To summarize several of the points in this thread so far: - First, and most importantly, we have significant contributors who rely = on and enjoy the ChangeLog file -- even if there are others, and potential contributors, who dislike it. If people doing the "real work" are using this file, we should keep it.= If they want to maintain it as a separate file in Git, we should let them. Even if it costs time to maintain it, or explain its necessity to newcomers, it's worth it to support those who do the lion's share of the work. However: once this situation changes, we should revisit the issue. I am prepared to drop separate ChangeLog files (generated or not) the moment our primary developers say they no longer need it. - The ChangeLog format helps to structure commit messages. I like this point, and agree that it sets a "bar" for commit log conten= t. Whatever helps us raise the calibre of our commit messages makes sense = to me. However, if we ever find that we're not reading that data while usi= ng vc-region-history or some other tool, we should revisit this point. - Commit messages cannot be edited. This is an area where "git notes" could, in fact, help. The idea is not that we use git notes for every commit, to provide ChangeLog data, but = use them to "amend" commit log messages. That way, when generating the ChangeLog for release, a git note can override a commit message, correcting what appears in the final ChangeLog. Using git notes in this way should almost entirely eliminate its merge issues, and we'd be using it for its intended purpose: notes on specific commits. In summary, I see two viable paths before us: 1. Go back to the old way of doing things, using a separately maintained ChangeLog file. As long as that's what our main contributors want, I believe it's what we should do. Even if we lose some new contributors, we should show support for those devoting the most time to our project. 2. At some future date, should the main contributors no longer rely on or want a separate ChangeLog file, we should: - Remove ChangeLogs from version control. - Require ChangeLog format entries in the commit message, as long as it helps us and improves the quality of contributed commit messages. - Employ some mechanism, such as git notes, to amend incorrect log messages when generating metadata for the release tarball. Our present mechanism, of maintaining a generated file under version contro= l, is currently agitating some of our core contributors, nor does it free us f= rom ChangeLogs. Rather, it's a compromise alternative that includes some of the worst aspects of both options (e.g., inability to edit commit messages; mer= ge problems with ChangeLogs; annoying primary contributors; needs tooling to handle the generation). That said, I want to make sure that we're actually hearing from all our "co= re contributors" in this discussion. Can I hear from some of the other large- scale contributors? For the sake of argument, here is everyone who has made more than 500 commits in the past five years (git shortlog --since 2011): 4467 Glenn Morris 3582 Paul Eggert #2 2543 Eli Zaretskii #1 1822 Stefan Monnier #2 1062 Chong Yidong 759 Michael Albinus 675 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen #2 653 Dmitry Antipov 639 Juanma Barranquero If there are others who have only recently become highly active, please pit= ch in also. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW3wPFAAoJEMFE2PTxn+Yw1/kL/jBqLF0NXT6NrlwdXUokP+nW CqskNvrmQ5Lco4SUbOfQt16C0iwqGfHuKDfCJtfjhY3Gp8mf2HX2y34xrMBwjm69 dhGPGdt0mGWJTI2m5Sz95R2AddO/YPBEA7IanBrPi1R7Kzm/0Gs3Cs50fCuGy0cW 5kjJvw2u7YzFaTHvX/AMNJUXSqxPKwKyXl5jCPHf2d3KElBheON3wFt9Sj79k+mJ YYmghK2iCKQCfE1Nz82CAIUzCygntQoQaIU8rk7gbnwftZYjYA11b6cYKnLQJB5G CJrTZ3771OokkJMwDeCWaENYmSaB6c5NwwnpdW/xC6aotyZkd5Qp5mMWHmGQSOQ6 a2AW+/rZhHq2mWjzluZiA2roemQTUAqMUXZEoVLaPqbf8hGckAvY7qnMqT++HjLB tpw/dinV4Iq8GkoxrNE7s4471uEbhTKHo+iQ8UUPILxKoVEg/nnldX/C8XDtdY5K dT8AJ8J4PFS3Vs9hR0EeMt572B0Y+/36rezrLZ4ugA== =gY6m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--