Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

Hello,

What alternatives are there to the following:

- Mac Mini (late 2018)
- Lenovo Tiny (Model P 330)

Lambdalabs doesn’t have of product of this size 
but has Ubuntu out of the box. The one thing I’d
miss leaving the Apple ecosystem is the Emacs Mac’s
convenience function Shift-Command-D for Dictionary.

Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

> What alternatives are there to the following:
>
> - Mac Mini (late 2018) 
> - Lenovo Tiny (Model P 330) 
>
> LambdaLabs doesn’t have a product of this size

SoftIron has the OverDrive 1000 ARM Workstation 
at 3.65kg with openSUSE but nothing at 1L.

(Noticed on guix-devel and forwarded, here.)

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Stefan Monnier]

> What alternatives are there to the following:
>
> - Mac Mini (late 2018)
> - Lenovo Tiny (Model P 330)

I think you'll want to be more clear in what you're looking for.
A cubietruck definitely fits the 1L constraint and runs a recent Emacs
just fine, and there are hordes of similar little beasts out there.


        Stefan

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

>> What alternatives are there to the following:
>>
>> - Mac Mini (late 2018)
>> - Lenovo Tiny (Model P 330)
>
> I think you'll want to be more clear in what you're looking for.

What I have is the Mac Mini (late 2009) and on to it GNU/Emacs runs.
Happily. The hardware consists of a twocore cpu, 8Gb ram, 256Gb SSD,
gigabit networking.

But, the operating system is no longer served as
upgradeable. Sadly. Why? my guess is the Metal™ subsystem for
accelerated graphics display won't interface with the vintage Nvidia
device driver, a marketing problem, not a software engineering
problem.

Having read [1] if I were to pick a Mac Mini cpu for GNU/Emacs, is the
i3 cpu better than i5, i7?

I am looking for hardware with "fit and finish" improving on what I
have and for the operating system to be free and open where possible.

System76, HP, ChromeOS suppliers satisfy the 1L constraint but they
don't look serious like, not even, the Apple TV puck.

> A cubietruck definitely fits the 1L constraint and runs a recent Emacs
> just fine, and there are hordes of similar little beasts out there.

The cubieboard is like the Raspberry Pi, some have the Mathematica
package. The look of them is like the fork in Toy Story 4.

--- Footnotes

[1] https://wp.me/p51SSp-dmc

-- 
© 2019 Van L
  gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
  "What is connectivity?" -John Sculley

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Stefan Monnier]

> What I have is the Mac Mini (late 2009) and on to it GNU/Emacs runs.
> Happily.  The hardware consists of a twocore cpu, 8Gb ram, 256Gb SSD,
> gigabit networking.
>
> But, the operating system is no longer served as upgradeable.

Odd.  My 2006 Mac Mini is still using the very latest version of the
operating system (Debian testing ;-).

> I am looking for hardware with "fit and finish" improving on what I
> have and for the operating system to be free and open where possible.

Keeping the same machine won't improve the "fit and finish", but
upgrading to Debian will definitely improve on the "free and open where
possible".   And it will save the planet a fair bit of green house gases
and pollution at the same time, so you'll get double karma points.

> System76, HP, ChromeOS suppliers satisfy the 1L constraint but they
> don't look serious like, not even, the Apple TV puck.

Indeed Apple is one of (if not *the*) most serious company in terms of
not letting their customers own "their" devices.

System76 is a joke in comparison.  For that reason, I'd go with System76
any day.  https://puri.sm/ is another one that doesn't take controlling
its customers seriously at all (tho they don't offer any desktop
machine yet, AFAIK).

>> A cubietruck definitely fits the 1L constraint and runs a recent Emacs
>> just fine, and there are hordes of similar little beasts out there.
> The cubieboard is like the Raspberry Pi, some have the Mathematica
> package.  The look of them is like the fork in Toy Story 4.

Not sure whether that means it's a good fit for your use case.
[ And not only because I haven't watched TS4.  ]
If you need something silent (and hence fanless), it's not the worst
choice and it's damn cheap.


        Stefan "hoping System76 will have fanless desktops next time he
                needs to replace his own"

1L? (was: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019)

[Skip Montanaro]

I am unfamiliar with the term "1L", and Google wasn't much help. What
does it mean beyond "one liter"? I am familiar with "1U" as a form
factor from the olden days when computers were rack mounted (as God
intended). I haven't seen the inside of a cage in a long while though.

Thx,

Skip

Re: 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I am unfamiliar with the term "1L", and Google wasn't much help. What
> does it mean beyond "one liter"?

I think he meant just that: one liter, i.e. an approximate upper limit
on the size of the machine.


        Stefan

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> I am unfamiliar with the term "1L", and
>> Google wasn't much help. What does it mean
>> beyond "one liter"?
>
> I think he meant just that: one liter, i.e.
> an approximate upper limit on the size of
> the machine.

Shouldn't *all* "1L machines" run Emacs
just fine?

I have an RPi3 from 2015 and it runs Emacs as
I'm typing this, and not only Emacs but the
familiar Raspbian OS, which is "Debian for the
RPi", but not exactly the real McCoy, so for
really exotic projects, I'd recommend a vanilla
Debian box with all the fixings.

Anyway the RPi, even including the case, should
be way below the 1L constraint so I'd expect
any machine significantly bigger that that to
at the very least run or favorite editor/OS
with no problems.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Van L]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I am unfamiliar with the term "1L", and Google wasn't much help. What
>> does it mean beyond "one liter"?

> I think he meant just that: one liter, i.e. an approximate upper limit
> on the size of the machine.

I picked it up from the Lenovo brochureware techspecs. Perhaps this
capacity measure has origin in watercooling. The specs mention
certification for independent software vendors and that I expect means
chances are better for Debian and the like to "just work".

> Shouldn't *all* "1L machines" run Emacs
> just fine?

It takes quite a while for gnus to process L117196 on entry to
gmane.emacs.help.  And, multitasking is impossible while this is
busy. A 6core cpu with HT won't make a difference to the 4core without
HT in performance, here.

> Anyway the RPi, even including the case, should
> be way below the 1L constraint

The worry is RPi's hobbykit won't cool adequately. The bits and pieces
wearout quick, for example, the SD card, &c, &c.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
  gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
  "Where is the letter T?" -Joni Mitchell

Re: 1L?

[조성빈]

Looking the thread it looks like you’ve used macOS for these years and finding a new mac :-)
While many people in this list are free-software advocates and doesn’t like ‘proprietary apple software ‘ and insists on free software, Apple’s macOS is much, much helpful on tasks that you can’t solve with emacs (like web surfing). 
The new Mac Mini is very powerful and the i3 processor will be sufficient to run emacs, but I would recommend the i5 processor (for daily tasks that emacs can’t do).
If you’re just looking for a portable computer, the new MacBook Air may be another good option. (MacBook Pro too, if you have a sufficient budget for your computer)

나의 iPhone에서 보냄

2019. 2. 7. 오후 7:31, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> 
>>> I am unfamiliar with the term "1L", and Google wasn't much help. What
>>> does it mean beyond "one liter"?
> 
>> I think he meant just that: one liter, i.e. an approximate upper limit
>> on the size of the machine.
> 
> I picked it up from the Lenovo brochureware techspecs. Perhaps this
> capacity measure has origin in watercooling. The specs mention
> certification for independent software vendors and that I expect means
> chances are better for Debian and the like to "just work".
> 
>> Shouldn't *all* "1L machines" run Emacs
>> just fine?
> 
> It takes quite a while for gnus to process L117196 on entry to
> gmane.emacs.help.  And, multitasking is impossible while this is
> busy. A 6core cpu with HT won't make a difference to the 4core without
> HT in performance, here.
> 
>> Anyway the RPi, even including the case, should
>> be way below the 1L constraint
> 
> The worry is RPi's hobbykit won't cool adequately. The bits and pieces
> wearout quick, for example, the SD card, &c, &c.
> 
> -- 
> © 2019 Van L
>  gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>  "Where is the letter T?" -Joni Mitchell
> 
> 

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

>> Shouldn't *all* "1L machines" run Emacs
>> just fine?
>
> It takes quite a while for gnus to process
> L117196 on entry to gmane.emacs.help. And,
> multitasking is impossible while this is
> busy. A 6core cpu with HT won't make
> a difference to the 4core without HT in
> performance, here.

What is "L117196"? For me, it doesn't take many
seconds to enter a newsgroup after the initial
reading is done. You can even cancel all the
messages after being absent for some time.
That will be even faster.

>> Anyway the RPi, even including the case,
>> should be way below the 1L constraint
>
> The worry is RPi's hobbykit won't cool
> adequately. The bits and pieces wearout
> quick, for example, the SD card, &c, &c.

Well, like I said, mine is from 2015.
Maybe I got it in 2016. Still runs. But the SD
card, and in particular swap space, can be
a problem, which is why I don't really
recommend the RPi as a development platform.
This doesn't mean you can't do programming on
it, and I've done tons. But a full-size
computer with plain Debian is probably better.
Which also makes sense.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

조성빈 wrote:

> Looking the thread it looks like you’ve used
> macOS for these years and finding a new mac
> :-) While many people in this list are
> free-software advocates and doesn’t like
> ‘proprietary apple software ‘ and insists on
> free software, Apple’s macOS is much, much
> helpful on tasks that you can’t solve with
> emacs (like web surfing).

You can surf the web with Emacs, e.g. using 3rd
party software Emacs-w3m which is in the Debian
[fork] repos.

And even if you don't want to do that and
instead use a web browser like Firefox what
does this has to do with macOS specifically?
There are web browsers for Linux as well :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[조성빈]

Well, as far as I know, w3m can’t execute Javascript, right? It’s not a viable alternative to ‘real’ web browsers.

The reason why I said about ‘free software’ is because the OP said that
* He will miss the Apple ecosystem,
* He said that other manufacturers (ChromeOS, System76, etc) didn’t look serious as much as the Apple TV,
* And he also specifically asked if the i3 or the i5 would be better when using the new Mac Mini,
but the first response (of this maillist) was, “Hey, use Linux! It’s free, and Apple is bad... Why use Apple when they don’t let them roll our own devices?”

I’m not saying that free software has problems, (I use them, like GNU Emacs) but pointing Linux is irrelevant to the question.

나의 iPhone에서 보냄

2019. 2. 8. 오전 12:47, Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> 작성:

> 조성빈 wrote:
> 
>> Looking the thread it looks like you’ve used
>> macOS for these years and finding a new mac
>> :-) While many people in this list are
>> free-software advocates and doesn’t like
>> ‘proprietary apple software ‘ and insists on
>> free software, Apple’s macOS is much, much
>> helpful on tasks that you can’t solve with
>> emacs (like web surfing).
> 
> You can surf the web with Emacs, e.g. using 3rd
> party software Emacs-w3m which is in the Debian
> [fork] repos.
> 
> And even if you don't want to do that and
> instead use a web browser like Firefox what
> does this has to do with macOS specifically?
> There are web browsers for Linux as well :)
> 
> -- 
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> 
> 

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

조성빈 wrote:

> Well, as far as I know, w3m can’t execute
> Javascript, right? It’s not a viable
> alternative to ‘real’ web browsers.

It depends what web pages you are visiting, but
obviously you are right if you want JavaScript.

But you can still use Emacs-w3m for everything
else, to have all the advantages since it is
integrated with Emacs and have the familiar
Emacs/Elisp customization/extension
interface.

And then have Firefox or whatever on the side
for maps, gear, and other stuff that rely
on JavaScript.

Even so, what you call real web browsers (with
JavaScript) are available on Linux systems, and
many other systems as well for that matter,
just as they are on the Apple OSs. Which I'm
sure you are aware of BTW.

> “Hey, use Linux! It’s free, and Apple is
> bad... Why use Apple when they don’t let them
> roll our own devices?”

Why indeed? :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[조성빈]

2019. 2. 8. 오전 4:51, Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> 작성:

>> “Hey, use Linux! It’s free, and Apple is
>> bad... Why use Apple when they don’t let them
>> roll our own devices?”
> 
> Why indeed? :)
I mean, what’s better between macOS and Linux is irrelevant, because the OP is (clearly ) a 10 year macOS user, willing to buy a new computer because it became obsolete (by Apple), and asked about the variant of Mac Mini to buy.
Linux is a good operating system, but it’s irrelevant to the point.
Think of this: You asked hardware to run Linux, and a bunch of ‘Apple Fans’ demand to buy Mac because Linux takes forever to configure, Linux doesn’t even dump memory to SSD when going to sleep, desktop GUI is fragmented, etc... It would be annoying, right?

Re: 1L?

[Vladimir Sedach]

> You can surf the web with Emacs, e.g. using 3rd
> party software Emacs-w3m which is in the Debian
> [fork] repos.

I recommend using emacs-w3m from the source repository, it contains
many bugfixes:

https://github.com/emacs-w3m/emacs-w3m

If anyone is under the delusion that w3m is not a "real" web browser,
I would recommend they try emacs-w3m for a while. It is simply a
better experience for serious browsing.

GNU IceCat is a web browser that supports JavaScript.

Finally, if you do not want to use GNU/Linux, OpenBSD is another
great Free Software operating system that can run on many models of
Mac Mini, and works great for hosting Emacs (typing this in GNU Emacs
on OpenBSD right now, with a bunch of emacs-w3m tabs open in the
other window…).

Vladimir

Re: 1L?

[Van L]

> Looking the thread it looks like you’ve used macOS for these years and
> finding a new mac :-)

Far from it. I'm genuinely looking for alternatives.

I believe the macOS quality probably isn't what I'm used to judging by
r/macOS on Reddit, but the internet plants and trolls could be at it.

> While many people in this list are free-software advocates and doesn’t
> like ‘proprietary apple software ‘ and insists on free software,

Here be wizards, dragons, saints (and little critters in dungeons who've
signed NDAs).

> Apple’s macOS is much, much helpful on tasks that you can’t solve with
> emacs (like web surfing).

This isn't true for me in text in html, for example

  And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have

the above line is fine in eww-mode for web reading.

> The new Mac Mini is very powerful and the i3 processor will be
> sufficient to run emacs, but I would recommend the i5 processor (for
> daily tasks that emacs can’t do).

YT and JS outside of GNU/Emacs.

> If you’re just looking for a portable computer, the new MacBook Air
> may be another good option. (MacBook Pro too, if you have a sufficient
> budget for your computer)

The new Mac Book Air has a dimmer display beside the older products a
step above or below in category feature/price. Some people say.

I'm 100% at desk with two screens and laptop isn't as handy as iPad,
iPhone on away walks without desk. (I fear the laptop keyboards are too
damn cheap on touch)

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"If this is higher education I am glad I missed it." -Joni Mitchell

Re: 1L?

[Van L]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> What is "L117196"? For me, it doesn't take many
> seconds to enter a newsgroup after the initial

That number is the line count for 16y46w1d of gmane.emacs.help

> ... a full-size computer with plain Debian is probably better.
> Which also makes sense.

Debian can be a pain in the arse for getting Emacs's documentation
because of purist's polemical interpretation of freedom is my
understanding. The kernel lead programmer doesn't use Debian according
to YT headlines.

On NetBSD the Emacs package is difficult, cross referencing to the C
source code is too hard.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"If this is higher education I am glad I missed it." -Joni Mitchell

Re: 1L?

[tomas]

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On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 08:14:44PM +1100, Van L wrote:
> Debian can be a pain in the arse for getting Emacs's documentation
> because of purist's polemical interpretation of freedom is my
> understanding.

Understanding things is usually better than resorting to -- uh --
polemics oneself. It is true that the GNU  Free Documentation
License (in its unrestricted form) is incompatible with the
Debian Free Software Guidelines. This is unfortunate, but such
messups are bound to happen from time to time. Each side has its
valid points.

That said, the Emacs docs /are/ available for Debianites, under
the non-free section. Where's the problem?

> The kernel lead programmer doesn't use Debian according
> to YT headlines.

Whatever YT is, I don't read its headlines ;-)

> On NetBSD the Emacs package is difficult, cross referencing to the C
> source code is too hard.

What do you mean by that?

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

조성빈 wrote:

> I mean, what’s better between macOS and Linux
> is irrelevant, because the OP is (clearly )
> a 10 year macOS user, willing to buy a new
> computer because it became obsolete (by
> Apple), and asked about the variant of Mac
> Mini to buy. Linux is a good operating
> system, but it’s irrelevant to the point.
> Think of this: You asked hardware to run
> Linux, and a bunch of ‘Apple Fans’ demand to
> buy Mac because Linux takes forever to
> configure, Linux doesn’t even dump memory to
> SSD when going to sleep, desktop GUI is
> fragmented, etc... It would be
> annoying, right?

Very.

But think of this, many people have smoked
tobacco for more than 10 years and then
stopped, and now their bodies (lungs) have to
a great extent recovered from this habit,
God willing.

:)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> Here be wizards, dragons, saints (and little
> critters in dungeons who've signed NDAs).

NDA = Non-disclosure agreement

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> The worry is RPi's hobbykit won't cool
>> adequately. The bits and pieces wearout
>> quick, for example, the SD card, &c, &c.

That's why I suggested the Cubietruck: the SD card is only used to hold
U-boot (think of it as a PC's BIOS), so you stick it in and never touch
it again.  And the rest can be put on a SATA-connected disk.  It also
comes with a (rudimentary) enclosure.  and since these thingies are
fanless, they don't suffer much from (nor accumulate much) dust.


        Stefan

Re: 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

> understanding.  The kernel lead programmer doesn't use Debian according
> to YT headlines.

There's a good chance that programmer doesn't use Emacs either.
And doesn't use a Mac Mini either.
I recommend you make your own choices ;-)


        Stefan

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> Debian can be a pain in the arse for getting
> Emacs's documentation because of purist's
> polemical interpretation of freedom is my
> understanding.

Admittedly, I never understood the fine points
either but as for getting the complete
Emacs documentation on a Debian system, that's
easy. You add

    non-free

to the line(s) in /etc/apt/sources.list and
then download the emacsA-common-non-dfsg
package like any other, with A being your
Emacs version.

You want the non-free stuff anyway so probably
it is already there.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

> Whatever YT is, I don't read its headlines
> ;-)

I suspect YT = YouTube, hence the need
for JavaScript.

But actually you don't need JavaScript even for
that. You can use dedicated software, e.g.
mpsyt/mps-youtube and youtube-dl :)

Yours truly,
EB

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[tomas]

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On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 04:15:08PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:
> 
> > Whatever YT is, I don't read its headlines
> > ;-)
> 
> I suspect YT = YouTube, hence the need
> for JavaScript.

I suspected the same, therefore the winky ;-)

I just dream of a world where those monsters don't get any
attention: they would shrivel up...

> But actually you don't need JavaScript even for
> that. You can use dedicated software, e.g.
> mpsyt/mps-youtube and youtube-dl :)

Yep. and cclive. I use them regularly. I want to make Google's
job as difficult as possible.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Vladimir Sedach wrote:

> If anyone is under the delusion that w3m is
> not a "real" web browser, I would recommend
> they try emacs-w3m for a while. It is simply
> a better experience for serious browsing.

At least for people who don't rely too much on
JavaScript sites and especially people who are
already in the Emacs world, fingers and head,
then yes.

I wouldn't go so far as to say users of other
browsers aren't doing "serious browsing" :)

> Finally, if you do not want to use GNU/Linux,
> OpenBSD is another great Free Software
> operating system that can run on many models
> of Mac Mini, and works great for hosting
> Emacs (typing this in GNU Emacs on OpenBSD
> right now, with a bunch of emacs-w3m tabs
> open in the other window…).

Every computer there is should run Emacs.

What computers on the market do not currently
run Emacs? How about we compile a list and put
it on the EmacsWiki? Anyway don't buy those
computers!

And not just because they don't run Emacs.
There is probably a lot of software they
don't run.

DANGER!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

>> System76, HP, ChromeOS suppliers satisfy the 1L constraint but they
>> don't look serious like, not even, the Apple TV puck.
> 
> Indeed Apple is one of (if not *the*) most serious company in terms of
> not letting their customers own "their" devices.

If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection from the likes of AMI, Apple's
justification for wanting to protect "their" devices is understandable.

>>> A cubietruck definitely fits the 1L constraint and runs a recent Emacs
>>> just fine, and there are hordes of similar little beasts out there.
>> The cubieboard is like the Raspberry Pi, some have the Mathematica
>> package.  The look of them is like the fork in Toy Story 4.
> 
> Not sure whether that means it's a good fit for your use case.
> [ And not only because I haven't watched TS4.  ]

It could be made to fit if it doesn't, but to see it everyday as an
unattractive object for 5 or 10 years would be very, very depressing
like wearing the nose on the earliest model Tesla roadster. (One was
thrown in space and the nose was framed out from the viewing angles.)

> If you need something silent (and hence fanless), it's not the worst
> choice and it's damn cheap.

Thanks for the insight.

>         Stefan "hoping System76 will have fanless desktops next time he
>                 needs to replace his own"

I'd like a 128-bit RISV 32-core cpu in an Apple TV puck Amazon ships.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What is connectivity?" -John Sculley

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection
> from the likes of AMI, Apple's justification
> for wanting to protect "their" devices
> is understandable.

Apple has always been like that. When they did
some early version of their Mac, they even did
a new, unique tool in-house so that it would be
impossible to open and get inside the computer
even with standard wrenches from the hardware
store! [1]

They do it because of an underlying philosophy
that people who buy their stuff should be
consumers and nothing else. Obviously this
makes sense for Apple, who want people to buy
their stuff, again and again.

But the amazing thing is that despite this
attitude, which clearly puts the consumer at
the lowest point in the tech hierarchy, their
marketing has fooled the Apple buyers into
thinking themselves as *an elite* (??).
For this scam to work, they must always be
made to pay much more for their stuff than
everyone else, which, again, works great
for Apple.

So Apple did really, really good. Don't hate
the player - hate the game.

> It could be made to fit if it doesn't, but to
> see it everyday as an unattractive object for 5
> or 10 years would be very, very depressing like
> wearing the nose on the earliest model Tesla
> roadster. (One was thrown in space and the nose
> was framed out from the viewing angles.)

What's wrong with the way it looks? I don't
like the red color (looks like blood) but apart
from that what's not to like?


    https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=656&q=cubietruck


You can always get a couple of POSCA pens or
put stickers on the casing, or simply put the
computer out of sight.

Typing this, I don't see my RPi. Because it is
behind me :)

[1] @book{iwoz,
  author     = {Steve Wozniak},
  ISBN       = 0393061434,
  publisher  = {Norton \& Company},
  title      = {iWoz},
  year       = 2006
}

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Indeed Apple is one of (if not *the*) most serious company in terms of
>> not letting their customers own "their" devices.
> If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection from the likes of AMI, Apple's
> justification for wanting to protect "their" devices is understandable.

I don't know what "AMI" stands for here (searching online finds way too
many possible interpretations of this acronym).

>> Not sure whether that means it's a good fit for your use case.
>> [ And not only because I haven't watched TS4.  ]
> It could be made to fit if it doesn't, but to see it everyday as an
> unattractive object

Ah, so you find it aesthetically unpleasing.  Obviously, there's no
arguing it (personally, I never want to see my desktop computer anyway
(as opposed to its screen and keyboard), so hide it anyway, whether
pretty or not).

But fashion changes.  I wouldn't be surprised if Apple comes out one
year with a device that comes with a clear case that shows the
underlying PCBs and stuff and then manages to sell that as
super-elite-cool  ;-)


        Stefan

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection
>> from the likes of AMI, Apple's justification
>> for wanting to protect "their" devices
>> is understandable.
>
> I don't know what "AMI" stands for here
> (searching online finds way too many possible
> interpretations of this acronym).

AMI = Accessible Media Inc,

    a Canadian non-profit broadcaster and media
    platform, operating digital television and
    audio channels primarily for blind and
    partially sighted Canadians. [1]

Here is an article on Apple from AMI, "AMI
Insiders discuss Apple's iPhone 7":

    The internet is polarized like a pair of
    high-end sunglasses over Apple's decision
    to eliminate the conventional headphone
    jack from the new iPhone 7. [2]

What a bummer! The internet is polarized like
a pair of high-end sunglasses, and I haven't
even heard about it, despite my trusted old
pair of high-frequency amplifiers!

But if the "conventional headphone jack" is the
traditional 3.5mm audio port then that "sounds"
like Apple alright - they probably want people
to buy new and more expensive stuff. And if
that source is correct, they already got half
the internet onboard!


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMI
[2] https://www.ami.ca/ami-insiders-discuss-apples-iphone-7

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Van L]

tomas writes:

>
> That said, the Emacs docs /are/ available for Debianites, under
> the non-free section. Where's the problem?
>

There's less of a problem if GNU/Emacs
can discover the documentation is
missing and describes the 'non-free'
steps to follow. I don't use Debian :-)
Maybe GnuSense doesn't have the problem
at all.

>> On NetBSD the Emacs package is difficult, cross referencing to the C
>> source code is too hard.
>
> What do you mean by that?
>

If I look up the documentation for
'eval' function, it says

  eval is a built-in function in ‘C source code’.

I get a dialog box on clicking the
'C source code'.

I list the contents installed and find
there's no src/ directory provided by
the NetBSD pkg_add installer.

MacPorts also does not provide the
src/ directory in the emacs-mac-app,
emacs-devel packages.

Previously, when I was building GNU/Emacs directly
from src the click on 'C source code' just worked.

I now have in the .emacs:

  (if (version< emacs-version "27.0.50")
      (progn
        (package-initialize)
        (setq source-directory "~/opt/share/src/emacs-26.1/src"))
    (setq source-directory "~/opt/share/src/emacs/src"))

the src/ directory is a 'git clone'
covering for what's missing in from the
installers. Those are *not* the C source
files the package installer actually
used.

How should the .emacs file be structured
to simultaneously work with 26 and 27's
M-x customize?

Thanks.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What is connectivity?" -John Sculley

Re: 1L?

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1864 bytes --]

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 05:34:33PM +1100, Van L wrote:
> tomas writes:
> 
> >
> > That said, the Emacs docs /are/ available for Debianites, under
> > the non-free section. Where's the problem?
> 
> There's less of a problem if GNU/Emacs
> can discover the documentation is
> missing and describes the 'non-free'
> steps to follow. I don't use Debian :-)

Perhaps that's the problem ;-P

> Maybe GnuSense doesn't have the problem
> at all.
> 
> >> On NetBSD the Emacs package is difficult, cross referencing to the C
> >> source code is too hard.
> >
> > What do you mean by that?
> >
> 
> If I look up the documentation for
> 'eval' function, it says
> 
>   eval is a built-in function in ‘C source code’.
> 
> I get a dialog box on clicking the
> 'C source code'.
> 
> I list the contents installed and find
> there's no src/ directory provided by
> the NetBSD pkg_add installer.

This would be a problem/bug in the NetBSD packaging. I'd complain
to them.

> MacPorts also does not provide the
> src/ directory in the emacs-mac-app,
> emacs-devel packages.

I've little experience with Mac.

> Previously, when I was building GNU/Emacs directly
> from src the click on 'C source code' just worked.

That's what I still do. It still works.

[...]

> How should the .emacs file be structured
> to simultaneously work with 26 and 27's
> M-x customize?

I can't help you there, since this involves the intricacies
of packaging. I build from source (since for Emacs, I /want/
bleeding edge; otherwise I'm infinitely grateful that there's
Debian and all those great maintainers!). As you already noted,
it Just Works(TM).

It is the package's maintainer's job to keep this functionality
alive in the packaged version, isn't it?

If I were you, I'd file a bug report with NetBSD.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection
>>> from the likes of AMI, Apple's justification
>>> for wanting to protect "their" devices
>>> is understandable.
>> I don't know what "AMI" stands for here
>> (searching online finds way too many possible
>> interpretations of this acronym).
> AMI = Accessible Media Inc,
>
>     a Canadian non-profit broadcaster and media platform, operating
>     digital television and audio channels primarily for blind and
>     partially sighted Canadians. [1]
>
> Here is an article on Apple from AMI, "AMI Insiders discuss Apple's
> iPhone 7":
>
>     The internet is polarized like a pair of high-end sunglasses over
>     Apple's decision to eliminate the conventional headphone jack from
>     the new iPhone 7. [2]

Hmm... so IIUC this reference to AMI was meant to talk about Apple's
choice to drop the old audio-jack from their devices?

That's not the kind of control I was talking about.  The problem I see
with Apple's control over their devices is that they control the devices
they sell even *after* selling them (e.g. by controlling which software
gets to run on it).


        Stefan

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Debian can be a pain in the arse for getting Emacs's documentation
> because of purist's polemical interpretation of freedom is my
> understanding.

BTW, while I did mention Debian in my original answer
(simply because I happen to use and like Debian), I really meant "any
GNU/Linux distribution you like".

I still stand by my recommendation that instead of changing your
hardware in response to Apple dropping support for it, you might be
better served by installing GNU/Linux on it.


        Stefan


PS: The reason why I use Debian is because 15 years ago its package
management tools were much better than the competition (or at least the
part of the competition that I knew back then).  And I haven't been
bothered enough since to try and look for something else (tho I do like
the NixOS design better).

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[조성빈]

나의 iPhone에서 보냄

2019. 2. 10. 오후 11:54, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> 작성:

> That's not the kind of control I was talking about.  The problem I see
> with Apple's control over their devices is that they control the devices
> they sell even *after* selling them (e.g. by controlling which software
> gets to run on it).

What kind of control? Apple Macbooks are just x86 computers that are capable of running macOS...
There’s no control whatsoever.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Richard Melville]

On 10/02/2019, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> PS: The reason why I use Debian is because 15 years ago its package
> management tools were much better than the competition (or at least the
> part of the competition that I knew back then).  And I haven't been
> bothered enough since to try and look for something else (tho I do like
> the NixOS design better).

What about GuixSD?

Richard

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Stefan Monnier]

> What kind of control? Apple Macbooks are just x86 computers that are
> capable of running macOS...  There’s no control whatsoever.

Indeed, there are some devices of theirs over which they don't have
quite as much control as they probably would like.

My suspicion is that this is one of the reasons why they've been
advertising the iPad Pro as not only a bigger tablet but also
a replacement for a laptop.


        Stefan

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

>   (if (version< emacs-version "27.0.50")
>       (progn
>         (package-initialize)
>         (setq source-directory "~/opt/share/src/emacs-26.1/src"))
>     (setq source-directory "~/opt/share/src/emacs/src"))
>
> the src/ directory is a 'git clone'
> covering for what's missing in from the
> installers. Those are *not* the C source
> files the package installer actually
> used.

I'm not following, do you want it to be the Git
source or the package manager's?

If you want it to be the package manager's
source, why don't you get that instead and
point `source-directory' there?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

>> I list the contents installed and find
>> there's no src/ directory provided by the
>> NetBSD pkg_add installer.
>
> This would be a problem/bug in the NetBSD
> packaging. I'd complain to them.

I also don't get it right by default
(i.e., just by installing Emacs from the
repos).

And check the docstring for `source-directory':

    source-directory is a variable defined in
    `C source code'. Its value is
    "/build/emacs24-MFg3PI/emacs24-24.4+1/debian/build-x/"

    Documentation:
    Directory in which Emacs sources were found
    when Emacs was built. You cannot count on
    them to still be there!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> That's not the kind of control I was talking
> about. The problem I see with Apple's control
> over their devices is that they control the
> devices they sell even *after* selling them
> (e.g. by controlling which software gets to
> run on it).

Indeed, one has to give at least that amount of
freedom to them, that they can manufacture any
piece of hardware they want :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> PS: The reason why I use Debian is because 15
> years ago its package management tools were
> much better than the competition (or at least
> the part of the competition that I knew back
> then). And I haven't been bothered enough
> since to try and look for something else (tho
> I do like the NixOS design better).

Yes, even Slackware has a package manager.
Perhaps not as elaborate as Debian's tho...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> writes:

> Van L wrote:
>
>> If, indeed, Apple does privacy protection
>> from the likes of AMI, Apple's justification
>> for wanting to protect "their" devices
>> is understandable.
>
> Apple has always been like that. When they did
> some early version of their Mac, they even did
> a new, unique tool in-house so that it would be
> impossible to open and get inside the computer
> even with standard wrenches from the hardware
> store! [1]
>

After the beige computer color period,
the colorful G3 Mac had a ring pull the
size of the 'o' in the 'ok' hand sign
that you pull and the whole case opened
as beautifully as a car's engine
cover. But down. It might've been
designed on their $15M Cray supercomputer.

> They do it because of an underlying philosophy
> that people who buy their stuff should be
> consumers and nothing else. Obviously this
> makes sense for Apple, who want people to buy
> their stuff, again and again.

A different explanation might be that
they wanted to shield the inner
electronics from ESD or pin bends by the
computer owner's wunderboy.

> But the amazing thing is that despite this
> attitude, which clearly puts the consumer at
> the lowest point in the tech hierarchy, their
> marketing has fooled the Apple buyers into
> thinking themselves as *an elite* (??).

Apple receives the best consumer
satisfaction ratings. That elite thing
is like the n-word? rappers say niggas.

> For this scam to work, they must always be
> made to pay much more for their stuff than
> everyone else, which, again, works great
> for Apple.

All it takes is for them to hire a
confederate or undercover spy and Apple
is screwed.

> So Apple did really, really good. Don't hate
> the player - hate the game.
>
>> It could be made to fit if it doesn't, but to
>> see it everyday as an unattractive object for 5
>> or 10 years would be very, very depressing like
>> wearing the nose on the earliest model Tesla
>> roadster. (One was thrown in space and the nose
>> was framed out from the viewing angles.)
>
> What's wrong with the way it looks? I don't
> like the red color (looks like blood) but apart
> from that what's not to like?
>

They call it midnight cherry red. I think.

The drama in the design of the original
Tesla roadster is documented.

: https://www.iot-store.com.au/products/cubietruck-plus-metal-allwinner-h8-cortex-a7-octa-core

> You can always get a couple of POSCA pens or
> put stickers on the casing, 

That's the convert a VW to Ferrari
trick. There are photos.

> or simply put the
> computer out of sight.
> Typing this, I don't see my RPi. Because it is
> behind me :)

Ah, but you know it is there and how it
looks.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What's so strange when you know that you're a Wizard at 3?" -Joni Mitchell

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> PS: The reason why I use Debian is because 15 years ago its package
>> management tools were much better than the competition (or at least the
>> part of the competition that I knew back then).  And I haven't been
>> bothered enough since to try and look for something else (tho I do like
>> the NixOS design better).
> What about GuixSD?

AFAIK it's an instance of the "NixOS design", right?


        Stefan

Re: Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> A different explanation might be that they
> wanted to shield the inner electronics from
> ESD or pin bends by the computer
> owner's wunderboy.

ESD = Electrostatic discharge [1]. But this is
not a different explanation. It is the same:
buyers are buyers and only buyers.

If people were to mess around with their Apple
hardware sometimes they would brake it and be
forced to by a new machine. But chances are
they wouldn't buy it from Apple a second time
around, party because of their own failure.

Chances are also they would *succeed* with
whatever they are doing and then feel so happy
about themselves and their unique machine they
wouldn't buy another one for ages. Apple can't
have that.

> All it takes is for them to hire
> a confederate or undercover spy and Apple
> is screwed.

That won't be necessary. People who want to
know will find out no matter what. But it
doesn't matter if one guy out ten thousands
does it. What matters is this habit won't
spread. To quote Mr. Bush, ~"You can't fool
everyone. But you can fool some, and those are
the ones you should focus on."

>> Typing this, I don't see my RPi. Because it
>> is behind me :)
>
> Ah, but you know it is there and how
> it looks.

Still, I like the way the RPi looks! But if the
board was red instead of the much calmer and
more pleasant green, I wouldn't like it
as much.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_discharge

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Vladimir Sedach]

> AFAIK it's an instance of the "NixOS design", right?

Guix is a GNU package manager derived from Nix. GuixSD is a GNU/Linux
distribution built on the Linux-libre kernel, Guix package manager,
and OS configuration and the init system written in Guile. There is
an Emacs major mode UI for the whole thing.

https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/

Vladimir

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Xavier Maillard]

> Yes, even Slackware has a package manager.
> Perhaps not as elaborate as Debian's tho...

That's not the thing I would recommend to use ;)

I'd rather build my own software via the
"configure/build/install"-chain.

-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Xavier Maillard wrote:

>> Yes, even Slackware has a package manager.
>> Perhaps not as elaborate as Debian's tho...
>
> That's not the thing I would recommend to use
> ;)
>
> I'd rather build my own software via the
> "configure/build/install"-chain.

Your own software?

Or all of your system's software?

Linux from scratch:

    http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[*OFF-TOPIC*] Suggestions for 1L computer to run Emacs 2019

[Van L]

>> All it takes is for them to hire
>> a confederate or undercover spy and Apple
>> is screwed.
>
> That won't be necessary. People who want to
> know will find out no matter what. But it

Yes. The CEO gives off the record
exclusive interviews and presentations
to elites :-) or gets hit on by AMI

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What's so strange when you know that you're a Wizard at 3?" -Joni Mitchell

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>:

> PS: The reason why I use Debian is because 15 years ago its package
> management tools were much better than the competition (or at least the
> part of the competition that I knew back then).

AOL! Except my switch was when a SuSE distro failed to upgrade in 2001.
The machine I initially installed debian on actually survived to 2016 (a
1996 vintage PII 233MHz), doing "apt-get dist-upgrade" all the way,
though in its later years it was degraded to router/firewall.

> And I haven't been bothered enough since to try and look for something
> else (tho I do like the NixOS design better).

I was unfaithful with Ubuntu for a couple of years (the netbook distro,
until Shuttleworth broke it with unity), but Ubuntu's just a different
side of the same coin really.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Emanuel Berg]

Steinar Bang wrote:

>> PS: The reason why I use Debian is because
>> 15 years ago its package management tools
>> were much better than the competition (or at
>> least the part of the competition that
>> I knew back then).
>
> AOL! [...]

http://catb.org/jargon/html/A/AOL-.html

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Stefan Monnier]

> AOL! Except my switch was when a SuSE distro failed to upgrade in 2001.

Hmm... my switch to Debian was in 2003 (I was using Redhat before
because it was not my own machine(s), so I only had a chance to choose
in 2003, after 7 years without owning a computer (my earlier computer
couldn't run GNU/Linux anyway, it was limited to MiNT)).

> The machine I initially installed debian on actually survived to 2016 (a
> 1996 vintage PII 233MHz),

My initial machine (Thinkpad X30) was brand new in 2003, so it's still
alive and kicking (although its mouse buttons are dead, so I have to use
keyboard emulation of mouse clicks), still running Debian testing.
I use it to project PDF slides in class.

Actually, I also remember now that another selling point for Debian was
the "testing" version, which lets you do "lots of small painless
upgrades" instead of "less frequent but more painful upgrades".


        Stefan

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 655 bytes --]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 03:34:08PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > AOL! Except my switch was when a SuSE distro failed to upgrade in 2001.

> My initial machine (Thinkpad X30) was brand new in 2003, so it's still
> alive and kicking [...]

Wow.

> Actually, I also remember now that another selling point for Debian was
> the "testing" version, which lets you do "lots of small painless
> upgrades" instead of "less frequent but more painful upgrades".

Debian "testing" as an ersatz rolling release. Yes, I did that for a while
too. Works, mostly.

Another crazy combo is stable+unstable (never do stable+testing!).

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Van L]

> Linux from scratch:
>
>     http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

This will be useful in that case:

      https://kernelnewbies.org/

I'm hoping for a LispOS on the SoC, sourceware up and down.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What's so strange when you know that you're a Wizard at 3?" -Joni Mitchell

Re: 1L?

[Van L]

Stefan Monnier writes:

>>> The worry is RPi's hobbykit won't cool
>>> adequately. The bits and pieces wearout
>>> quick, for example, the SD card, &c, &c.
>
> That's why I suggested the Cubietruck:
> the SD card is only used to hold U-boot
> (think of it as a PC's BIOS), so you
> stick it in and never touch it again.
> And the rest can be put on a
> SATA-connected disk.  It also comes with
> a (rudimentary) enclosure.  and since
> these thingies are fanless, they don't
> suffer much from (nor accumulate much)
> dust.
>

The SiFive Freedom U540 was release April
2018 but has a fan. The CPU is RISC-V.
An optional $2,000 expansion board makes a desktop.

Cubietruck's UI shows its heritage as a
media player. The ARM processor is from
2013 of the ones I saw. The Mac Mini
became a boring media player (2010-8).

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
"What's so strange when you know that you're a Wizard at 3?" -Joni Mitchell

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Xavier Maillard]

All system's software *but* on slackware.

I am using WSL on win32 system nowadays though

-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: [OFFTOPIC] 1L?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>:

> Actually, I also remember now that another selling point for Debian was
> the "testing" version, which lets you do "lots of small painless
> upgrades" instead of "less frequent but more painful upgrades".

If memory serves me right, there was a period of time when they took a
lot of years to roll out a new stable, and I stayed on testing for that
period.

But after they startet rolling out new releases every two years, I've
stayed on stable.