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[99.97.209.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 64sm2730143otc.18.2021.10.12.20.42.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:42:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::335; envelope-from=agzam.ibragimov@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x335.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276858 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > Our work proceeds by replacing nonfree programs. Why do that? > Because each one is an injustice -- denies freedom to its users by > giving its developer power over them. A nonfree program is not an > inferior solution; it is a problem. We can fix that problem by > replacing it with free software, so that it can't do wrong to people > any more. > > When we can't supersede a particular nonfree program in the near > future, we should be careful not to be led into enhancing its use. > Thus, when someone says, "Let's implement XYZ; it will be convenient > for users that want to do ABC," we must ask: What is ABC, and is > making ABC more convenient a good thing? > Popular nonfree programs have many users, and they will innocently > suggest we direct our work to make their use of nonfree software more > convenient. I don't blame them for suggesting this, but it is not > what we should do. > > We have to do careful thinking about what constitutes progress in this > particular situation. We have to find the various options -- > including mixtures of the obvious options -- and think about what good > and bad effects they would have. Finding the right choice may be > subtle and complex. > > But we can't find the right choice if we don't evaluate it based on > the right values and goals. Facilitating the use of VS Code or GitHub > is not a goal; encouraging people to stop using them is a goal. > I profoundly appreciate you for graciously explaining this all. I understand the points, and I don't think I'm in complete disagreement with them. My mistake was to speculate about an idea. Which, upon the materialization (if ever happens), may or may not be efficacious and valuable for Emacs users. But my greatest mistake was to suggest that it could potentially bring convenience to users of nonfree services and proprietary software. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that someone should work on it. I was merely curious if anyone had attempted to build it. And the potential technical challenges to watch for. I still think that there's a significant utilitarian value of simply consolidating and unifying numerous different dissimilarities existing today for different programming languages in Emacs. Polyglot programming has become a norm in the industry, and sadly, Emacs has earned quite an infamous reputation for being difficult to learn. And programming language books and tutorials, sometimes even after acknowledging the incredible power of Emacs and recommending to learn it, often warn the learners to avoid making the mistake of trying to learn both the language and Emacs simultaneously. And as I mentioned before, even experienced users of Emacs often have to abandon it after fruitless attempts to make it work nicely with a different language. Something simple as: "it keeps screwing up the formatting" can become the source of enormous frustration. But finally, eglot and lsp-mode started challenging this status-quo. And I honestly think we should embrace these efforts and pave the way for Emacs to become the ultimate, egalitarian programming environment for everyone. I hate to bring this up again, but VSCode (if you haven't yet noticed) is already ahead of us in this competition. No, I don't think I'm exaggerating. I think it's an accurate assessment. Yes, Emacs still has a few cards up the sleeve, but for how long? You have had witnessed the rise and fall of legendary Lisp machines with your own eyes. And I think Emacs, even though maybe not ideal, but indeed the best "Lisp machine" that we have today. And I don't think Emacs is guaranteed not to face a similar fate. I'm sure people would use classic counter-argumentation like: "it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Just wait another twenty years, and you'd see...", and I have used the same argument many times myself. But the pace of growth and expansion of VSCode, various plugins, and services that support it come across as almost unprecedented. Unfortunately, I cannot offer you sound, reasonable suggestions that are guaranteed not to challenge to the slightest your firm beliefs and uncompromising philosophy, and I wouldn't even try. But I plead you to take this adversary seriously, and I am pretty sure I am not the first one to do that. We probably need a better strategy. Better than just: "encouraging people to stop using them is a goal". Thank you.